Why is E-Bay allowing so many bootleg copies of Scarface for sale? (1 Viewer)

[Jeff Kleist]

Ok Todd, you go look there and tell me for absolute certain which discs are bootlegs and which aren't.

It's very easy actually

Ebay, if you're reading, fly me out there and I'd be happy to train any team you have on how to spot a boot.

Frankly, Lucasfilm should get an order for them to install a filter blocking the terms "Star Wars Trilogy, A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, Indiana Jones Trilogy, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Temple of Doom and Last Crusade" melded with "DVD" on a permanant block until there are official releases

 

[Damin J Toell]

Umm, because it's the job of any copyright holder to protect their copyrights? The courts have already said this. It's the same with every industry.

I'm not sure what that quite means. Just because it's a copyright holder's "job" to protect their copyrights, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're the only ones who have the "job" of making sure the law isn't broken. Are copyright holders supposed to be omniscient in their ability to track down infringements all over the country? Indeed, I believe it is eBay's "job" to make sure that their sellers do not break the law, as they make money from it and have the power to stop it, which are the classic elements of vicarious liability.

The one court ruling on the subject rather goes against my opinion, although not quite in the manner you suggest (that is, the court didn't quite say "eBay isn't liable because it's the copyright holder's job to protect their copyrights, not eBay's", although perhaps they came close). In Hendrickson v. eBay, Inc., 165 F. Supp. 2d 1082 (C.D.Ca. 2001), the court found that the DMCA's safe harbor provisions applied to eBay's management of auctions on its website. Because the copyright holder who filed suit in the case didn't comply with the notification requirements of the DMCA (e.g., list specific auctions that are infringing), eBay was held to be not liable for not removing auctions.

I think Judge Kelleher of the Central District of California completely dropped the ball on his DMCA analysis. The DMCA is meant to cover copyright infringements that actually take place on the system; that is, activities in which the transmission of data itself on a system is the infringing activity in question. I don't think at all that the DMCA is meant to cover (nor does it actually cover, by its language) "real world" sales of copyright material that take place offline that just happen to be arranged through a website. Indeed, the title of the section of the DMCA from which the court applies its standards (17 U.S.C. § 512(c)) is entitled "Information residing on systems or networks at direction of users" and the language of the section says that it applies to infringement that takes place "by reason of the storage at the direction of a user of material". In an eBay auction, the infringing material isn't stored on eBay's system; the infringing material is presumably at the bootlegger's house, waiting to be mailed to auction winners and no storage of material takes place on eBay's system. § 512(c) simply doesn't apply to an eBay auction. I'm not sure what Judge Kelleher was thinking here, but I find his conclusion to be rather outrageous.

I think eBay is liable under standard "real world" liability; the fact that the auction activity takes place online is rather immaterial. In the real world, flea markets who don't police their sellers are indeed held to be liable for copyright infringement. See, e.g., Fonovisa, Inc. v. Cherry Auction, Inc., 76 F.3d 259 (9th Cir. 1996). Flea markets who willfully blind themselves to bootleggers conducting sales on their premises aren't exempt from liability simply because it's "the job of any copyright holder to protect their copyrights." No notice needs to be given by copyright holders in those situation, as flea markets either have to police themselves or pay the price in court; courts don't require omniscient powers on the part of copyright holders as you apparently do. And eBay shouldn't be given a pass simply because they have a website instead of a brick and mortar building.

Anyway, although the Hendrickson case is good law in California at the moment, I'm rather doubtful about how much stamina the case has. It was only a district court ruling, which is the lowest in the federal court system, and it therefore has a rather weak precedential effect. I wouldn't be surprised if a more with-it Circuit Court of Appeals panel actually reads the DMCA properly at some point down the road.

DJ

 

[Jeff Adkins]

The same thing is true of bootleg DVDs being sold out in the open in New York City for years. I haven't lived there since 98, but I'll bet within 15 minutes of arriving at Penn Station I could find someone selling them on the street. On my last trip there in August they had nearly every first run movie for sale on DVD for $10. It's always been that way (except it used to be VHS), and I assume it always will be.
I could take you to any number of record stores in the East Village which have been selling bootleg CDs out in the open since my first trip there in 1990. Surely by now, someone has noticed this besides me! Surely someone besides me must know that The Beatles don't have 40-50 official releases Yet, it continues. Unfortunately, as I see it you would wipe out the majority of the bootleg market by releasing these things officially. Region codes are not helping either. Now that Asian discs are starting to have region codes, bootleggers are cleaning up. They are just duping the originals and removing the region code (or in some cases adding english subs like on the uncut Ichi The Killer).
Studio Ghibli has long known about the bootleg box sets that have been for sale for well over a year now. I just checked and they're still plentiful. I think many people are just giving up. What really sucks is...let's say you wanted to sell your official R2 version of Spirited Away when the R1 version gets announced for whatever reason. Your R2 version from Japan would be competing with about 30 copies the same disc sans region code for anywhere from $10-13.
Jeff

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Studio Ghibli is well aware of these sets on Ebay. The problem is that a-they go up faster than they're reported and b-by the time they get their list, send it to Ebay most of them are buyitnow'd

They are doing their best to fight it, and you can do your part by reporting them to Ebay. Tokuma SHoten has filed the appropriate paperwork for their speedy removal

Studio Ghibli has long known about the bootleg box sets that have been for sale for well over a year now. I just checked and they're still plentiful. I think many people are just giving up. What really sucks is...let's say you wanted to sell your official R2 version of Spirited Away when the R1 version gets announced for whatever reason. Your R2 version from Japan would be competing with about 30 copies the same disc sans region code for anywhere from $10-13.

 

[John_Berger]

Not to play devil's advocate or anything ... just to put a different spin on the discussion.
Has anyone even considered the possibility that studios are not taking action against certain titles because at this point they don't care?
I'm discounting copyright issues right now. Yes, yes, it's illegal. I know, I know (waving hand dismissively in air) so don't bother stressing the point.
Regardless, I'm sure that people like George Lucas, Steven Speilberg, and the studios do care about what's happening -- to an extent.
But one thing that everyone seems to be discounting here is that the argument can be made on an ethical if not legal point that there is no money lost by the selling of many of these DVDs, particularly the Star Wars and Indiana Jones trilogies. They're not on DVD; they're not commercially available on laserdisc; they're not (officially) scheduled to be released any time soon. Bootlegs of these titles can't compete with the original DVDs because there are no original DVDs with which to compete!
As much as many people still consider that to be blatant stealing, many others consider that to be equivalent of a "used" market because there are no "new" items that can instead be purchased. You know that's not really the case; I know that's not really the case; but the truth is that there are a lot of people out there who do.
Yes, yes, I know. Money is potentially "lost" because the studios and filmmakers are not getting any royalties. I understand that. But I don't think that we should discount apathy on the part of the studios or filmmakers.
I'm not going to go so far as to say "If they don't care, why should we?" But I would think that if Lucas really considered it to be a problem and came down on eBay and said, "Knock it off!" they would do so in a heartbeat. I'm sure that he will be more inclined to do so after the 4, 5, and 6 DVDs are out. I'm also sure that he also knows that he'll make a killing anyway when those DVDs do come out officially. This is where the apathy can set in. Based on his current trend, he's going to pack so much into the official releases that even those who bought the bootlegs are going to want the real thing. Could that be why he's not cracking down on the "original trilogy" DVDs? I would think that it's a part of it.
Whereas everyone here seems to be ready to blame eBay for not policing their own playground, I'm sure that apathy on the part of the filmmakers and studios for certain titles plays a role as well. Hell, if Hollywood can bribe Washington to pass the unconstitutional DMCA, they should be able to bribe or buy people in eBay to do effective policing of the DVD section. The fact that they're not, I believe, also says something about how seriously they take eBay as a pirate's cove.
All right. I'll just sit back now and wait for Jeff to tell me how far off my rocker I've gone and for Damin to stress how it's blatantly illegal and therefore must be stopped, and so forth.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

They do care. But killing the small-fry sellers is not cost-effective. What they really want are names and addresses of major pressing and distribution centers

 

[Patrick Sun]

It's cost/benefit analysis time: The amount of resources it'd take for Ebay to patrol every single auction for bootlegs far outweighs the income from auction listing fees, and potential penalties for allowing such activities to occur.

Remember that car makers have to get to a certain level of expenditures in terms of costs before they'll issue a recall on problematice models, and before they reach that point, they'll just issue non-publicized service bulletins, and only treat the people who bring their cars in to fix the problem. The same thing is going on with Ebay and the auction of bootlegged items.

The point to issue a "recall" hasn't been reached at Ebay, and probably never will.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

I think it would also be nice if they put together a volunteer anti-bootleg force then.

 

[Ted Todorov]

Not all R0 discs are bootlegs, but if you see a major studio title like The Others as R0 it's a boot.

That is FAR from the truth. A major part of the Criterion collection is R0. A good number of legitimate disks coming from places other than North America are R0 as well.

Region codes were sold as a way to prevent the sale of DVDs in places where the film is still in theatrical release. The fact that that vast amounts of DVD of catalog films are region coded, even in cases where one studio owns the worldwide rights, shows that region codes are being seriously misused. The purpose here is to be able to charge different prices in different territories, which is blatantly illegal under various international trade provisions, EU charter, etc.

Bottom line: most DVDs now on the market now SHOULD be R0.

Ted

 

[Jeff Kleist]

That is FAR from the truth. A major part of the Criterion collection is R0. A good number of legitimate disks coming from places other than North America are R0 as well.

Criterion is not a major studio. And if they're major studio titles, no they're not R0.

Agreed that Region coding should be abolished, but until it is it is an easy way to find out where the boots are

 

[Chris Xolotl]

I have a lot to say. But Jeff (take your pick) have illustrated the problem nicely.
I will add that instead of whining and bitching about all the bootlegs you see on e-Bay.
Do this... Everytime you see one on E-Bay, click on this link to flag an auction for investigation:
Link Removed
Wording that usually helps is if it's a major studio say "Please refer to MPAA VERO for investigation". The thing is if a studio (major/independent) is registered with e-Bay, then they usually cancel the auction if there is more than a few days left on it.
Also, I've had auctions cancelled by FOX before on legit DVDs (R2) and it took about a week or two to convince them they were legit (perhaps, actually linking to their own website with the DVD on it was pretty convincing

 

[John_Berger]

I think it would also be nice if they put together a volunteer anti-bootleg force then.

That would work, but they won't do it because of logictical and administrative reasons. Let's face it. Even though we on HTF know that you're a person of good standing, you're a stranger to them. They have no proof that you know your DVDs plus they will be held responsible for any mistakes that you make.
DVDs are also a miniscule small part of what they sell. It would probably not be worth the effort to have a special team dedicated to the volunteer's specific e-mails that an auction needs to be closed, and they sure as hell are not going to give you the keys to close an auction.
I hate to sound like it's really a lost cause to get eBay to stop the piracy, but it is.
I do like how you slammed the hell out of the "pre-release" dimwit, though.

 

[Mark-W]

Just thought this would be good to post here:
(Taken off of imdb.com.)
MPAA Cracks Down on eBay Movie Piracy
Culminating a months-long probe by the Motion Picture Association of America, during which investigators purchased pirated movies online, the MPAA on Tuesday filed federal civil lawsuits against what it claimed were bootleg film operators in eight states. The lawsuits, charging copyright infringement, were the first aimed at sales of movies over the Internet, most of them allegedly conducted over the eBay auction website. Previous suits had been aimed at producers of illegally copied DVDs, CVDs, and videocassettes sold on the streets or by mail order. The BBC reported Tuesday that some 12,000 fake DVDs were sold on the auction site over the course of just one year.
So, someone is doing something.
Mark