Why I think BluRay may be the future for CD-based music and HD video content... (2 Viewers)

[Lee Scoggins]

Paul,

Thanks for the links. Looks like Sony is really trying hard to convince the studios.

I betcha if they get some big studios Microsoft will lean toward BluRay support. That would be a way to hedge their bets.

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,

Microsoft won't support Blu-ray as a distribution format if Sony (et al) don't select VC-9 as one of the mandatory supported codecs.

Cheers,

 

[Brian-W]

on a completely related yet totally unrelated note...

Nice - PS3 will use Blu-ray

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content...e=dev&aid=3919


Given that the PS2 has the largest installed base for game systems, this is a potential nail in HD-DVDs coffin.

 

[Marc Colella]

Actually PS2 game sales have been slumping, and you can bet that XBOX2 will support HD-DVD. MS announced last week that Longhorn will also support HD-DVD.

The game's not over yet.

 

[Brian-W]

You're right, the game isn't over. But Longhorn isn't due out for God knows how long (2009 is the latest number I've seen thrown around), and XBox and HD-DVD is an unknown.

PS-2 sales slumping doesn't change the fact that Sony beat Nintendo/Sega in hardware sales and installed base for PS1, and have an even bigger hit with PS2 also beating both companies silly for installed base. It's safe to say Sony will easily have a significantly large installed base from previous PS1/PS2 customers.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

A big win. PS2 sales slumping is something that is cyclical and related to the product launch cycle.

 

[James Morrow]

Whilst MPeg4/AVC Type 10 faired badly against MPeg2 in the Blu-ray Disc Founder's tests at high definition, a new version with "Fidelity Range Extension," called H.264/AVC FRExt, which uses very similar technology to VC-9 (the algorithm set behind WMV9) has been demonstrated as being better than 24Mbps MPeg2 for 1080p24 at 16Mbps with grainy film sources, better at 12Mbps with general films and at 8Mbps with computer-generated imagery. See

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/englis...=JAEN&wb_dis=2

The Blu-ray Disc Founders are currently evaluating H.264/AVC FRExt, and based upon the very positive results of these tests (which show that the fidelity range extensions greatly improve the performance of H.264 [MPeg4] with high definition material) are likely to agree on including it within the BD standard in the Autumn. However, as VC-9 [WM9] is very similar to H.264/AVC FRExt it might not be included.

I’d like to see some good demos of true 1920 by 1080 p24 material with this new codec at these higher bitrates for myself, compared against WMV9 and also Mpeg2 at 28Mbps and even 32Mbps in order to better understand the kind of trade-offs we will be required to accept. Demonstrations of 1280 by 720p24 at bitrates over 10Mbps would also be of value, as many broadcasters, aiming to maximise revenue (surprisingly enough) are going for 720p rather than 1080p at the moment.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

James,

Here is an interesting viewpoint from BusinessWeek:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...3/b3896100.htm

 

[Paul.S]

Thx for the BW link, Lee.

If one is familiar with all the behind-the-scenes brokering Warren Lieberfarb did to make DVD a reality, perhaps that piece brings to mind similar thoughts as it did for me like, 'gee, we really could use some Lieberfarbian efforts and finesse on hi def DVD right now.'

-p

 

[Lee Scoggins]

We could definitely use some finesse. I have been thinking about ways a compromise could be worked out:

1. Pool all the royaltees and go offer a percentage to NEC and Toshiba but go with BluRay. The logic is that BluRay is closer to reality (players selling in Japan) and has more firms behind it. This way NEC and Toshiba get a piece of the action.

2. Go with BluRay and offer NEC and Toshiba the PC data royaltees.

3. Create a hybrid format combining the best features of the two (maybe advanced codecs of HD-DVD and capacity of BluRay?). Split the profit pool accordingly.

4. Go with HD-DVD and give the Sony consortium exclusives on music and PC data.

Any way, there are a million ways to "split the baby" as the attorneys say.

 

[Brian-W]

I think that offer has been extended, and why Blu-Ray has so many manufacturers supporting it - they're given a share of the royalty pool.

NEC and Toshiba decided to go it alone, and I hope that their inferior format isn't successful.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

If this is true then it appears that NEC/Toshiba are being more greedy than others. Screw em!

 

[Marc Colella]

Sounds like NEC/Toshiba are doing a Sony imitation.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

How so?

 

[Dan Hitchman]

Well, if H.264/AVC FRExt is as good or better than VC-9 and can do 10 and 12 bit color spacing and pro grade component levels, then I hope Blu-Ray will use it as the standard rather than MPEG-2 1080i.

The only other question I have is what will Sony's choice of audio codecs be? HD-DVD talked of MLP lossless for high resolution audio, but as of yet I haven't heard more than a peep about what Sony has in mind.

I would be beside myself if we're back to crappy, filtered 1080i and Dolby Digital 5.1 after what we know of the capabilities of the newest codecs and lossless audio formats.

Here's to fully optimized 1920x1080p/24, 25, 30, 48, 60 fps at 10 bit color, 4:4:4 component, and 8 channel discrete, high resolution lossless.

That's what I'm shooting for because it's very, very possible to do and should be the bare minimum specs... for Blu-Ray especially since we have 50 GB's now and the ability to push to upwards of 200 GB's soon.

 

[Marc Colella]

Looks like HD-DVD will hit store shelves before Blu-Ray.
Along with that, the XBOX2 (which is supposed to include HD-DVD) is slated to be released before the PS3.


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...m_highdef_dc_1

 

[Tony_Ramos]

Two thoughts:

1.) X-Box 3 looks all set to come out soon. This is likely, and the specs look great. Expect more killer graphics and PC ports.

2.) PS3 WILL SUCK at launch. More than X-Box did, and ALMOST as bad as PS2 did.

3.) Sony is repeating their proprietary, hard-to-program-for design mistakes. X-Box 2 will have a stronger launch library than PS3, regardless of when it comes out, b/c of easier programming.]



Why is this important? B/c i think the winner of this hardware *launch* will help determine the winnder of the hi-def formats.

 

[Thomas Newton]

For film-sourced material played back on video devices, refresh rates of 72 Hz and 96 Hz would make more sense. I'm pretty sure that with CRT-based computer monitors, anything below 60 Hz is an invitation to "flicker".

 

[Tony_Ramos]

technically, the flicker is present on any 60hz display, right? isn't it just that the effect is more visible the closer you are to a display?

and i think the former poster meant frames per second concerning hte source material, not the output. modifying 60hz to 72hz is something that has to be done by the display

 

[James Morrow]

Sounds good to me, Dan, Thomas …

The phosphor in CRT displays has to fade quickly enough to prevent smearing of fast-moving objects but slowly enough to minimise flicker. Most people can see flicker at 60Hz, and 50Hz looks dreadful - but 96Hz is high enough to avoid flicker. This becomes even more important with larger displays, not least because thy often subtend a greater angle in your field of view - so that your peripheral vision (which is much more sensitive to fast movements or changes flicker) starts complaining even at 96Hz. High-end computer graphics systems often use rates approaching 150Hz.

Flat display panels such as LCD display each pixel without fading, so only change on refresh - hence flicker is not a problem. The "only" issue is how quickly each pixel can change state, and so to avoid display-induced motion-blur manufacturers have been driving down respone time, with 20ms and less being common now and even 8ms being quoted by some.