Why have Dolby on these movies?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Steve_Tk, Jun 21, 2002.

  1. Steve_Tk

    Steve_Tk Cinematographer

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    for example

    Jurasic Park. There is a collectors edition with Dolby and a lot of special features. Then they come out with a DTS version, obviously only made for people that want DTS, but they get rid of some special features to add the DTS version. If people are buying the DTS version, they are buying it for DTS, then why not cut out the Dolby and include the rest of the special features?

    Does dolby have some copyright law that says that all DVD movies have to have a dolby version on them?

    I'm not bashing Dolby here. But every movie I've ever watched sounds better in DTS. And I know Star Wars is a great Dolby track, but I can't help but think that if TPM makes Dolby sound that good, then just think how the DTS would sound...
     
  2. Damin J Toell

    Damin J Toell Producer

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  3. Ken Seeber

    Ken Seeber Supporting Actor

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    First of all, yes, Dolby is part of the specifications set up for DVD. DTS came later. In fact, the version of DTS used on DVD wasn't available until well after the launch of the format.

    If a DTS DVD didn't have a DD track on it, it would be unplayable on any equipment that didn't have DTS, so having the DD track makes it more compatible.

    As far as "Star Wars" goes, Lucas is in tight with Dolby. His company helped develop Dolby Digital EX (which was originally called THX Surround EX), so you're unlikely to find a DTS track on a Lucasfilm disc.
     
  4. Damin J Toell

    Damin J Toell Producer

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    BTW, you can find the DVD specifications here: http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/DVD/
    In particular, the audio specs say:
     
  5. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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  6. Scott_MacD

    Scott_MacD Supporting Actor

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    Michael : Enough said, when the variables are the same, it sounds about the same. It's all in the mix!
    I wish someone would please settle this DTS/DD issue once and for all. Experimenting with various encoder settings, detail all the experiments and results, and so on. Dolby and DTS issued papers on their rival, results of experiments, and just repeatedly bashed one another, and to be frank, they embarrased themselves. [​IMG]
     
  7. Dan Hitchman

    Dan Hitchman Cinematographer

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    Your opinions only.

    I'd much rather Lucas has gotten tight with DTS instead then they could have released DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 to theaters instead having this matrixed channel crap thrown back in our faces again. Matrixing should have died with ProLogic for movies!

    Dan
     
  8. Rachael B

    Rachael B Producer

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    I aggree with the administration, [​IMG] I doubt TPM could sound better in DTS. It sounds better in AC-3 than the full-bit DTS DVD's and DTS LD's I've heard. What other movie has that many spectacular effects? What makes it great is what Lucasfilm brings to the encoding room, not DD or DTS. DD or DTS not make one great! What other film has so many precisely placed effects? Maybe Lucas' latest effort? BTW,[​IMG] I stille think the TPM LD walks on the DVD. In my book it's the best sounding home video and that Lucas' crew that didn't win the Oscar for it got ripped off! Best wishes!
    P.S.- Dan, I think matrixing works just fine for a rear channel enhancement and it adapts well to a wide variety of equipment."...with or without..."
     
  9. Nick_Scott

    Nick_Scott Second Unit

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    A good test sounds nice.
    All we need is an original LPCM source master.
    Then run it, and a DTS and DD track through some sort of analyizer which compares the compressed tracks to the master and rates how close it comes to the original.
    So, where do we find an the LPCM master anyway? [​IMG]
    Actually, I think some DVD-Audio discs have an uncompressed MLP track, plus a DTS and DD track.
    How hard would it be to write a program to compare which comes closest to the original?
    Nick
     
  10. Jon D

    Jon D Stunt Coordinator

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    Everybody hits the nail on the head with the phrase "it's all in the mix". Every now and then, a DTS track comes along that kicks the crap out of it's Dolby counterpart (The Haunting, U-571, Jurassic Park, and Saving Private Ryan), but in all these cases, a different (and usually higher quality) master was used for the DTS track (or in the case of U-571, some apparent encoder issues, according to a lengthy post on the disc a few months back). When DD and DTS are sourced from the same master, they usually sound virtually identical. Even DVDfile.com, which is rather notorious for it's sometimes biased DTS reviews, admits that most modern dual DD/DTS soundtracks sound almost alike, with DTS supposedly having a slight advantage in 'spatiality,' which is a completely subjective term. For such an apparently small advantage, it sure does rile people up around here, doesn't it?[​IMG]
     
  11. Rachael B

    Rachael B Producer

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    Jon, the full bit-rate DVD's and the DTS LD's are consistently X-cellent, no doubt. [​IMG] bit DTS only occasionally rises too close to that level IMO.
    JURASSIC PARK is pretty much awesome in PCM on LD or Muse LD or AC-3 LD. It's another example of it's what you bring to the game IMO. Same for STARGATE, I've seen it in all three versions too.
     
  12. Mark Kalzer

    Mark Kalzer Second Unit

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    Here's just a thought I've had regarding this whole DD vs. DTS debate. We all know that when they're mastered off the same mix, the differences are only slight at best, yet when seperate mixes are used, (i.e. Saving Private Ryan) the DTS is much more improved. I wondering if it's not quite so much as, "sprucing up the mix" as taking advantage of the benefits of DTS in the DTS mix. Think about it. A mix that's being used for Dolby and DTS must be compromised towards the weaker format, and the better version would not be used to it's fullest extent. We know DTS also has a higher bit-rate, and so perhaps when they mix specifically for DTS, they are able to do a lot more that they can't with Dolby, (I've heard for example that Dolby Digital has a tendency to remove bits away from other channels whenever the surround use gets heavy, while DTS truly is secrete.) and make a superior mix. Does anyone else think this is possible?
     
  13. Holadem

    Holadem Lead Actor

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    Simply to add that I am amazed that a DD vs DTS thread should exist in the middle of 2002. I thougth this was one of those topics we had grown out of! [​IMG]
    --
    Holadem
     
  14. BrentPollard

    BrentPollard Second Unit

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    I support DTS as much as possible, simply becaus I believe competition is good. That's also why I own an iMac.[​IMG]
     
  15. Vince Maskeeper

    Vince Maskeeper Producer

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    Do you Dan? I would have never guessed, since your posts never ever mention DTS.
    I would have never guessed.
    [​IMG]
    -Vince
     
  16. Kevin M

    Kevin M Producer

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    DTS is well known for "sweetening" up the mix (mainly in the surrounds) in order to present a more robust 5.1/6.1 track, I question whether this is true to the original sound mixers intent. But then again I really don't know if they (the original mixers) were involved in these sweetened DTS mixes or not, they may have.
    Anyway, this is why it is usually very difficult to do a "blind" comparison of the two...unless you use Anchor Bay mixes and then I personally can't tell much of a difference....hell I would prefer PCM anyway! [​IMG]
     
  17. Dave H

    Dave H Producer

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  18. Adam Barratt

    Adam Barratt Cinematographer

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  19. Wayne Bundrick

    Wayne Bundrick Cinematographer

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    DTS didn't sweeten the surrounds. What they did was encode the soundtracks as-is without alteration. That sounds like the proper thing to do, but there's a 3dB difference in the standard level for the surround channels vs. the front channel in the cinema, compared to home theater where both front and rear channels have the same reference level. DTS didn't make the necessary adjustment, so their surround levels were 3dB too loud. Not altering the audio turned out to be the wrong thing to do. Louder surround levels caused listeners to perceive that DTS soundtracks had "more action" in the surrounds compared to Dolby Digital.

    Unfortunately it was Dolby that looked into these claims, found the cause, and brought the mistake to DTS' attention and to the public's attention. DTS acknowledged the mistake but of course pointed the finger at the studios for not sending them proper mixes. But the bottom line is DTS was at fault because they were the ones doing the encoding, pressing, and selling the laserdiscs, the buck stopped with them. Plus DTS should have been aware of all the well-established standards and practices in the film industry.
     
  20. Darren_Fu

    Darren_Fu Stunt Coordinator

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    If you have a receiver that has a DTS decoder. Then say, next year a movie comes out on DVD with a DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 Soundtrack on it. Will your receiver be able to play it or will you need a different reciever that is compatible with DTS-ES Discrete 6.1??? Just curious!!!!

    DF
     

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