Why don't receivers have bass mgmt built into x.1 analog inputs?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Ted Lee, Jun 26, 2002.

  1. Ted Lee

    Ted Lee Lead Actor

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    hopefully this isn't too stupid of a question...or has been asked before. no way i'm doing a search on 'bass management' [​IMG]
    this bass-mgmt question has to do with utilizing the 5.1 multi-channel inputs.
    with the advent of hi-res audio (dvd-a/sacd), i'm still unclear as to why more receivers don't integrate this. are there any receivers out there that currently do this?
    i'm sure the general population aren't aware of (or would want to buy) an ICBM, so what's the alternative?
    specifically, what technical reasons would there be to NOT put bass mgmt in a receiver? or is it a cost issue? or maybe the manufacturers just don't have a clue?
    seems bizarre...
    ted
     
  2. Rich Malloy

    Rich Malloy Producer

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    The good ones do.

    And I don't mean just the expensive flagship models. My $499 Outlaw 1050 has some serious bass management capabilities. In addition to the usual large/small settings, I can set the crossover at 60, 80, 100, 120, 150 or 200hz.

    I'm not sure what degree of flexibility most other mid-priced receivers have, but I'd assume they're at least in the same ballpark, if not better. Bass management is so important these days that I don't think any self-respecting receiver can lack fairly extensive flexibility in this regard.
     
  3. Ted Lee

    Ted Lee Lead Actor

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    sorry rich -

    i should have been clearer. i meant in regards to using the 5.1 multi-channel inputs.

    i'll edit my above post.
     
  4. Tony Lai

    Tony Lai Stunt Coordinator

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    HT receivers do have BM - some of them are rather rudimentary, ie. 80Hz cutoff for large/small up to the variable 40-120Hz types with various waterfall slopes.

    They do not have BM on the multichannel analog inputs.

    T.
     
  5. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Ted,

    At the low end, it's simple. Cost.

    As you move up the ladder, it adds to the final cost.

    The only other alternative is to digitize the 5.1 input, then treat as "just another digital source".

    Regards,
     
  6. Ted Lee

    Ted Lee Lead Actor

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  7. Ted Lee

    Ted Lee Lead Actor

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    thanks john -

    so the obvious problem, and what i pretty much figured, is two-fold.

    cost: in order to optimize hi-res, i certainly wouldn't mind paying for it. i suspect most hi-res fans would also be willing to shell out a few extra dollars. but then i suppose they could just buy the icbm? :b

    signal degredation: (analog -> digital -> analog) i suppose that would concern me more. have there been any sorts of tests or anything to determine how much of an adverse affect this would have on the final signal?

    ted
     
  8. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    I thought that the Denon 5803 has BM on it's multi-channel input?
    Sooner or later, I hope, that most pre-pros/receivers and/or players will include this.
    Don't forget that the Outlaw 950 pre/pro *does* have this. Doesn't cost that much either... [​IMG]
     
  9. Tony Lai

    Tony Lai Stunt Coordinator

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    It was expected that the upstream processor or DVD-A/SACD player have some form of BM - negating the need for BM in the receiver/preamp.

    T.
     
  10. DanielSmi

    DanielSmi Second Unit

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    The Pioneer Vsx-49tx and 47tx along with the Denon 5803 and the 5800 upgrade all have bass management on the multi-channel inputs. That's all that I know of right know these are high-end expensive receivers, I have the 49tx and think it's great I've had it for 4 months and I'm still amazed by the things it can do. The 49tx is about $2500, 47tx about $1700, 5803 about $3000 and 5800 about $1800 plus $800 for upgrade.

    Daniel Smith
     
  11. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Tony- But you're forgetting about all the *other* processing you can get in a receiver/pre-pro, that a DVD/SACD player will never do. Digital delay (the biggest one), "cinema eq", notch filtering/parametric EQ, expansion of 5.1 sources to 6.1/7.1, etc.
     
  12. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Studio Mogul

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    I've amended the thread to more reflect the discussion at hand.
     
  13. Mike Veroukis

    Mike Veroukis Second Unit

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    I take it that most receivers handle the bass management issues in the digital domain? If that's the case then I wonder why more receivers don't have adjustable cross overs as that would be trivial to do. But that can't be the case as two channel audio from CD and VCR would not have BM either, but I'm pretty sure my RX-V2200 supports BM on those analogue inputs. So what's the technical reason for lack of BM on the 5.1 inputs? What's so hard about it?

    One problem I see is that there is an explosion in software formats. With all these formats (and many more to come) it's getting harder and harder to keep up with all the decoders required for them all. It would be ideal if you could just hook up your DVD-A player to your receiver via digital connection and let it decode it at full resolution. However, if the manufacturers decide to not go this route then BM should really be in the player itself.

    It's a complicated situation and there doesn't seem to be a quick and easy (not to mention cheap) solution. It seems that if you want BM on your 5.1 analogue inputs you simply have to pay more for it.

    - Mike
     
  14. Larry Becker

    Larry Becker Agent

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    I'm another Pioneer 49TX owner, and can vouch that it does the full bass management/time alignment/speaker and room eq treatment on 5.1 (and 7.1 if needed!) analog sources. The iffy part of it is that it converts it to the receiver's digital domain to do this. The receiver would have to be VERY GOOD at this conversion to make it work. In my opinion, and the opinion of the reviewer in S&V, it is indeed very good.
    Pioneer seems to be about one generation away from a full digital solution on this. Their rumored upgrade/replacement to the 49TX reportedly will have firewire inputs to match their new DVD player. Both will be pricey, but I'm hearing only about $500 to upgrade my 49TX in the fall. A little high, but doable.
    The ICBM will do crossovers by channel, isn't too expensive, and by all accounts works well. It doesn't do time alignment or room eq. Inserting an under $300 device like that has GOT to do more damage to the signal than the 49tx's digital conversion. Having said that, both are really good for what they do.
    Should we wait for the next, next, next thing? I jumped when I saw the 49tx's solution. It works well. Pioneer will upgrade it to the next level. I'm happy.
    Larry [​IMG]
     
  15. Mike Veroukis

    Mike Veroukis Second Unit

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    This digital stuff is really cool, but the technology really does need to mature. Unfortunately, the nature of digital technology is to keep changing thus it may never be as robust as the old analogue solutions.

    This might be a bit off topic, but has anyone ever considered an AudioPC receiver (similar to HTPC)? With all the digital inputs you'd ever need (FireWire, optical...), a modern PC has the power to decode just about any signal stream and is flexible and expandable to keep up with future sound formats.

    - Mike
     
  16. Ted Lee

    Ted Lee Lead Actor

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    thanks for the info on the pioneer, denon and outlaw. i didn't realize there were already receivers with (what appears to be) pretty capable bass-mgmt facilities.
    i'm not a big fan of having the player do the mgmt - all the reviews i've read have basically said it works, but not really well.
    i've never been a really big pioneer fan, but i'm not familiar with their latest stuff. i'll have to give them a second look.
    the 950 does look promising but who knows about the wait?
     
  17. Mike Veroukis

    Mike Veroukis Second Unit

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  18. Ted Lee

    Ted Lee Lead Actor

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  19. derek

    derek Second Unit

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    As I see it multi-channel inputs (5.1/7.1) should be as close to direct connections to the amps in the receiver as possible. Many have analog volume control, but those with bass-management need extra A/D/A conversions done on the input signals (and this option should be selectable/bypassed.) Bass management should be done digitally in the equipment upstream (ie SACD/DVDA player.) We should be pushing for that not vice-versa.
     
  20. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Derek,

    It is not necessarily true that bass management requires an A/D and D/A cycle. Bass Management can be done quite handily in the anaog domain, as Outlaw has demonstrated with their ICBM.

    Regards,
     

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