Why doesn't George Lucas just reshoot Episodes IV-VI (1 Viewer)

[Jeffrey Forner]

Considering how much some people like the changes Lucas made in the Special Editions, I'm sure people would absolutely LOVE it if he were to do away with the originals completely and just make the new ones.
Nope, I can't see anyone around here complaining about that.
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-J.Fo
"Why do I always get a warped one?"

 

[Tom-G]

Very nice, J.Fo!

I love the Special Editions (except for Greedo shooting first and Luke screaming), but there is something to be said for retaining the original version of the film and any film for that matter. Like so many others, I hope that when the DVDs are released in 2006, the original versions will be included.
Soon after I saw how great the special effects were The Phantom Menace I wondered if George would ever consider re-doing the special effects, not the whole movie, after the prequel trilogy was complete.
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As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day. --Roger Ebert on The Phantom Menace
AIM: Aureus91 / DVDs / ICQ: 58566493
[Edited last by Tom_G on October 25, 2001 at 08:37 PM]
[Edited last by Tom_G on October 25, 2001 at 08:40 PM]

 

[Morgan Jolley]

I personally would love for Lucas to re-SE the films and include the originals, only touched up to look and sound better. Putting both on a DVD would be great.
I love the SE of Episode I, and I would probably love another SE of IV-VI. It's his vision, why shouldn't we see it in any other way than he wants us to?
I want him to edit out Luke saying "Carrie" when he gets out of the X-Wing in Ep IV. It bugs me that he never got rid of it in the SE.

 

[Seth Paxton]

quote: Somehow I can't imagine that level of commitment being an attractive prospect (or even possible) for a story that the filmmaker has already told, literally[/quote]
Good thing for Doris Day that Hitchcock didn't know this.
I like where Carlo is going with this, although I think some people are missing the point. His point is that we would have the OT as the ORIGINAL, back to the way it was. Maybe cleaned up or remastered. Hell, I don't really need the OT to have the 5.1 even.
Then, for people who want the latest and greatest, and for things to match (which Lucas seems to be the leader of this pack himself) there would be REMAKES of the OT.
I mean the guy already lugged everyone back out to the desert for the ANH SE, among other places. It WASN'T just CGI work in a studio for those SEs. Remakes are made all the time and sometimes the involved parties are the same people.
It won't happen, but it almost makes sense to me as well.
After all, there are 2 or 3 of many films. Ben-Hur, Mutiny on the Bounty, etc, etc. Does the remake make the original invalid? I'd say it often points out how much better the original was, and does Lucas really want to learn this lesson some more?
And Van Zant has already been mentioned as someone who could help.
[Edited last by Seth Paxton on October 25, 2001 at 09:56 PM]

 

[Carlo_M]

Thank you Seth. You are probably the one who understands closest what I meant.
Again, like so many SW threads, this one has become the Lucas vs. anti-Lucas campaign which is exactly what I did not want it to become.

 

[SteveGon]

I'd much rather have Lucas working on the OT dvds than reshooting them! 'Nuff said!
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My top ten movies that need to be on dvd:
1. Akira Kurosawa's Dreams 2. Freaks 3. Men With Guns 4. The Ninth Configuration 5. The Reflecting Skin 6. Santa Sangre 7. Treasure of the Sierra Madre 8. Voyager 9. White Heat 10. Wings of Desire

 

[Michael Reuben]

Good thing for Doris Day that Hitchcock didn't know this.

Oh c'mon, Seth, I never said it hadn't been done, just that it wasn't something that I thought would appeal to most filmmakers. All your other examples are remakes by different filmmakers. (BTW, you left out the only other director I can think of besides Hitchcock who remade his own film: George Sluizer's The Vanishing.)
M.

 

[Coressel]

"I want him to edit out Luke saying "Carrie" when he gets out of the X-Wing in Ep IV. It bugs me that he never got rid of it in the SE."
It's your imagination, kid. Luke never did say "Carrie" in that scene in the first place.

 

[Jefferson Morris]

That's a ridiculous statement. Where has this "frustration" been evinced?

Oh, I don't know...how about in just about every interview Lucas has ever given on the subject of Star Wars. Haven't you heard him complain about the original cantina scene?
The man is a perfectionist, and computer graphics technology is the ultimate enabler of his perfectionism, in that it allows him total control of every element in the frame (all the way down to changing actors' eyelines and facial expressions after the fact, which I believe was done a few times on Phantom Menace).
Limited resources and limited technology have bedeviled Lucas and his vision from the very beginning. Otherwise we would have seen a full-motion Jabba the Hutt in 1977, and Coruscant in 1983 (where Luke's confrontation with the Emperor was originally to have taken place). Every time he's spoken about Episode One, he's waxed poetic about the level of visual control that only CGI provides.
Perhaps you took my statement as Lucas-bashing. I didn't mean it as such. But Lucas' tinkering with the original trilogy is all the evidence I need that he was never really happy with what he was able to accomplish in the 70s and 80s. Re-shooting the OT top-to-bottom is a logical (if impractical) extension of this line of thinking.
--Jefferson Morris

 

[Brad_W]

quote: he wants it to match Episodes I-III. That's why he re-CGI'd Mos Eisley[...][/quote]
Actually, if you watch the SE's on VHS he says beforehand that he did them to complete his vision. He also said that "...films are never finished, only abandoned." He didn't have time or money to "complete" the films the way he wanted to, but with new CGI he was able to. I'm sure that this helps tie-in the original trilogy to the new trilogy visually, but that wasn't his reasoning.
No matter how many people bash Lucas, he created one of THE most popular film series ever, and most profitable too. Even if you hate Lucas and Star Wars, more people have seen any one of these films than most films out there. I think Lucas is awesome and highly creative.
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"I was born to murder the world." -Nix (Lord of Illusions)
My Home Page http://www.geocities.com/masternix/DVD.html
My List O' DVDs:
Link Removed
[Edited last by Brad_W on October 26, 2001 at 02:43 PM]

 

[Tom-G]

I think Lucas is awesome and highly creative.

I do too. We are in the minority in these parts, Brad. I can somewhat understand why so many people here are critical of Lucas. A lot people here are film purists and they don't want to see movies tinkered with. It gets a little annoying and hypocritical though, when people extol the virtues of having deleted scenes, director's cuts and so on and yet hate the fact that George Lucas makes changes to his movies.
I never read complaints lodged against James Cameron for multiple versions of Aliens, The Abyss, or Terminator 2. When is the last time somebody bitched about the different versions of Blade Runner. Look at how many people rally for Richard Donner's version of Superman II. I also seem to remember some people being upset over the ommission of deleted scenes in It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World. I could go on, but I'm sure my point is a cogent one.
Also, people have lambasted Lucas for making Star Wars geared towards kids. Some of these people are the same ones who LOVE movies geared for kids like Toy Story or Shrek. Star Wars has always been geared towards kids. Lucas revolutionized not only movie-going and movie-making, but also the way movies are marketed. I'm sure many people my age remember playing with all of the Star Wars toys when we were younger (the toys that our parents grievously disposed of). Nothing has changed in those regards.
One of thing that bothers me is the fact that people who are so critical of The Phantom Menace feel that my opinion must fall in line with their's, i.e. that it sucked. I happen to have enjoyed the film immensely and I'm very much looking forward to Episodes 2 and 3. I certainly don't feel that someone who didn't like the film should like it just because I did. Proof of that can be found over on www.reel.com in Jeffrey Wells' comments about TPM's DVD sales.
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As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day. --Roger Ebert on The Phantom Menace
AIM: Aureus91 / DVDs / ICQ: 58566493

 

[Brad_W]

quote: many people here are critical of Lucas[/quote]
The reason many people are critical of Lucas is because he is a great artist. Artists who's works are popular and viewed more often are typically critized more-so than other artists due to their success.
Tom,
I too agree with you on your comments. I too enjoyed The Phantom Menance and look forward 2 and 3. As a whole, the Star Wars films are awesome. When looked under a microscope, like any movie, they have minor flaws. But I love them just the same.
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"I was born to murder the world." -Nix (Lord of Illusions)
My Home Page http://www.geocities.com/masternix/DVD.html
My List O' DVDs:
Link Removed
[Edited last by Brad_W on October 26, 2001 at 03:20 PM]

 

[Tom-G]

Quote:

Yes, he's been very instrumental in developing digital effects. It does give a filmmaker artistic freedom. It's the next stage in making movies. It's no different than animation in that it allow people to create worlds and characters that they otherwise could not. Computer Generated Imaging is not a bad thing. If you find it distracting there are plenty of other movies that don't contain such effects. Watch those instead.
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As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day. --Roger Ebert on The Phantom Menace
AIM: Aureus91 / DVDs / ICQ: 58566493

 

[Carlo_M]

Tom & Brad,
I was trying to keep this thread from turning the direction you seem insistent on turning it to.
First of all, I too think Lucas is highly creative. It's his imagination that thunk up this whole thing (okay, loosely based on Kurosawa's samurai movies, but hey, we all need inspiration). I think most peoples' problems are in his execution, which you cannot tell me is flawless. I can think up of real cool things in my head, too, but don't challenge me to write a great film treatment from it...
Please try to keep the thread on topic and don't sound off like a pro-Lucas support group. The people who have contributed well to this discussion (both in agreement and dissension to my idea) have tried to keep "Lucas Sucks" and "Lucas Rules" to a minimum. We are discussing the fact that since he keeps re-visiting these titles, why not go ahead and remake them. There is no way a film stock from 1977 will ever match the digital wizardry that is Episode I. Now I am NOT TALKING ONLY ABOUT THE SIZE OF CITIES OR LANDSCAPE. I'm talking about how the characters look onscreen. 4-6 was shot on film. That's the way the characters look on screen. Ep1 most of the characters have a digital sheen to them, even when there are minimal special effects. So instead of constantly revamping them (and yes I again admitted that it was rumor that he's doing it for DVD but that was a POSTULATE for the purposes of this discussion) why not reshoot them?

 

[MickeS]

Actually, does he really need to reshoot them? Since a LOT of TPM was blue-screen work, couldn't he just do every scene, every set and every effect in CGI, thus making the movies match Ep 1-3, and yet no re-shooting is needed. Kind of like an SE but everything except the actors' will be redone.
/Mike

 

[Heinz W]

Reshoot the OT? Intriguing idea Carlo, but I doubt Lucas would be willing to commit to another 7 or so years to do it. I think there's a more practical (read: less costly) way to achieve uniformity and consistency in the look of the two trilogies, without completely remaking the old films and thus bearing the brunt of the sure to ensue outrage by fans. I'm also fairly certain that this is what will happen once the new films are complete:
Lucas will then re-do the current SE's with whatever the current state-of-the-art CGI is available at that time (2006?), possibly changing/altering/adding to what was done in 1995 and 1996. Hopefully this will include restoring the original Greedo scene in SW and eliminating Luke's scream and the "Alert my Star Destroyer to..." line in Empire but believe me, I'm not holding my breath on that one!
I hope he at least cleans up the few things he didn't in the first SEs. Obi-Wan's lightsaber 'going out' when fighting Vader in SW, the hideous matte lines around the rancor monster in Jedi, etc.
You know, I really didn't mind most of the changes in the OT like the effects updates, but I have major issues with anything that changes the story or characters. Han DID shoot first, and to me that scene will always be screwed up because of Lucas' tinkering. Aside from the fact that it changes Han's character, the way Han moves out of the way of the laser looks just awful; the CGIing of the scene is extremely apparent and Han's movement looks very un-natural. He may also add creatures from the new trilogy into the old, sort of like showing Boba-Fett in SW.
When all this is done I think we'll see the "Archival Box Set" that has been mentioned.
The first two films will always be among my favorite movies and remaking them would be like some contemporary band redoing "Stairway to Heaven". You could, but WHY would you? How can the original be improved upon? Sure the fidelity would be better but would the song itself?
Me thinks not.

 

[Carlo_M]

Now there's an interesting thought. Removing all of the non-actor things in the OT and replacing them with new CGI? Then he could artificially give that "slightly digital" look to the actors to make them match the background. That way he wouldn't necessarily have to reshoot with new actors, and still obtain that uniformity of look (as in the "shot in digital" look of Ep.1 not the naturalistic "shot on film" look of the OT).

 

[Tom-G]

quote: Please try to keep the thread on topic and don't sound off like a pro-Lucas support group[/quote]
Carlo, with all due respect I'll continue to go with the flow until a moderator tells me to do different.

Now there's an interesting thought. Removing all of the non-actor things in the OT and replacing them with new CGI?

That's exactly what I said in one my earlier posts! There is no doubt that the two trilogies, when viewed in order, are going to look incongruent with regards to special effects. The effects in the original trilogy are great, but they do slow the film down every so slightly in comparison to the computer generated effects. For example, the space battles. They are terrific in in the original trilogy, but in TPM the space battle is much more elaborate (though inferior) becuase the effects people are able to do a lot more movements and quicker movements.
If the insertion of all new effects ever comes to fruition, I hope that the original versions will still be available. With the digital technology, it certainly makes it easy. It's only up to Lucasfilm whether or not do that.
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As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day. --Roger Ebert on The Phantom Menace
AIM: Aureus91 / DVDs / ICQ: 58566493
[Edited last by Tom_G on October 26, 2001 at 06:05 PM]

 

[Carlo_M]

Yeah Tom, but it's real hard to get past your LUCAS RULES rhetoric to get to that part.
Look, you continue the way you want until the mods tell you otherwise. I guess it doesn't matter to you what others think of your style of posting in the SW threads. But trust me when I tell you that others email me when you post a reply and tell me that it's not worth it to fight with you. And I'm not talking about just one guy, either.
I had a thought that I wanted to hear from others about. I didn't want to rehash the Lucas Rules/Sucks crowd. If you really want to rain on my thread like this, I can't stop you.
[Edited last by Carlo Medina on October 26, 2001 at 06:04 PM]

 

[Tom-G]

It's not fighting. At least, I've never seen it like that. I've always thought that we were just discussing. I guess I was wrong.
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As for the bad rap about the characters--hey, I've seen space operas that put their emphasis on human personalities and relationships. They're called "Star Trek" movies. Give me transparent underwater cities and vast hollow senatorial spheres any day. --Roger Ebert on The Phantom Menace
AIM: Aureus91 / DVDs / ICQ: 58566493