Why do we buy tower speakers? (1 Viewer)

[BruceD]

Introducing an 80Hz (or in the ballpark) highpass xover through a full-range 3 way speaker is likely to not affect the "midrange" driver at all since its frequency range is probably already determined by the speaker's internal passive xover, which probably has the midrange driver only going down to about 200Hz, or thereabouts.

Jim is certainly correct with respect to 3-way speakers. Remember my comments about IM distortion were only for 2-way systems.

I think xover dynamics is a very difficult topic. If the symmetry of the high-pass and low-pass xovers are not exactly the same, then the SPL output of both will not sum to flat at the xover frequency between the mains and sub (especially when using ported main speakers).

One of the reasons I chose a 4th order Linkwitz-Riley xover between my mains and sub was for its -24dB symmetrical slope (sums flat @xover frequency) and zero degrees of phase offset.

 

[Michael R Price]

"Other than the last item, it's basically touchy feely abstract reasons as to why people buy towers."

That last item is a lot of somewhat useful technical reasons. IMO, the main reason is to have a much cleaner midbass (since many bookshelfs can't even deliver good bass 60-80Hz) and allow a shallower (or symmetrical) crossover.

Frankly though, I'd much rather save money and have bookshelf speakers (or spend the same money and have better midrange and treble quality in a bookshelf) unless in cases like the Paradigm Studio 40 and 60, where the cost difference between the bookshelf and tower is almost as small as the price of stands. The construction costs of the tower are much greater and usually that makes towers an expensive option for HT.

 

[Bill Kane]

The other side of the coin is actually ENJOYING the floorstanders' capability. My Monitor 9s have been set SMALL almost from the day they came into my house. Now I have my SUB disassembled waiting for a new driver, so I've set all 5 spkrs back to LARGE and Bass to Mains.

I must say I enjoy the "new" fullness of the spkrs, esp. in 5-Chl Stereo mode. So it's an incentive to do this more often w/ other than DVD 5.1 sources!

 

[KeithR]

All,

There is a misconception that all bookshelves have no midbass...this is completely untrue. Most bookshelves today will go sub 50hz which will have the midbass from 60-80hz. So what are you giving up by having a floorstander with a bit more bass that you are going to crossover anyways? In fact, my "monitors" have better midrange and midbass than practically every floorstander I have auditioned.

I think some confuse "minimonitors" with true monitors which leads to a false comparison. In no way would I recommend speakers that roll off after 100hz unless for pure aesthetic reasons. Companies like M&K design speakers flat to 80hz, and with a good sub should be seamless if setup properly. They have done so for 20 years, and I would love to hear someone prove how M&K speakers are poorly designed.

In regard to soundstage and imaging, all I can say is with the over 30 speakers from 3-10k that I auditioned, monitors in general succeed better at disappearing, and locating instruments in the right place. They also typically require less toe-in to accomplish this. There are practical reasons why a floorstander compromises, as the cabinet and crossover design is much more difficult to implement. This makes them more expensive to design, and corners are inevitably cut for a given price range. Like I said earlier, a true 3-way is very difficult to implement, and I haven't heard one that integrates drivers well enough for under 5k. However, due to the nature of the beast, some 2 way monitors that are under 5k do this much, much better.

To be honest, I agree with the poster about machissimo why floorstanders sell...and btw good stands aren't that expensive. Why the Osiris stands on A'gon for 299 are as good as the Wilson stands that I owned for 10x the list price.

BTW, BruceD, would love to hear the 2.8s! The 1.3SEs I have are the best speakers I have heard under 6k.

Regards,

 

[Jeff Keene]

Simply put, the size of the cabinet does not indicate the frequency range of the drivers. At least that's what my wife says.
That's why I really hate the designations "Small" and "Large". My speakers are not small, dagnab it, but I do want my processor to cross them to the sub at about 80hz.
That's because the crossover works by rolling the speaker off while rolling the sub... on. Crossovers differ in slope, but a nice rule of thumb (as others have stated) is to make sure your speakers have -2or3 db rolloff at approximately an octave below the crossover point.
So, for a "Standard" 80hz crossover, you would like your speaker to be capable of playing that 40hz "note" at about -3db. How many bookshelves play that strongly at 40hz? I honestly don't know. But not as many towers do as you'd think, so...
Anyway, MY towers are rated at 38hz with -3db. They are 3 way towers with nice 8" woofers. And they are set to small (not that there's anything wrong with that...).

 

[Walt N]

"There is a misconception that all bookshelves have no midbass...this is completely untrue. Most bookshelves today will go sub 50hz which will have the midbass from 60-80hz. So what are you giving up by having a floorstander with a bit more bass that you are going to crossover anyways? In fact, my "monitors" have better midrange and midbass than practically every floorstander I have auditioned."

No question about it, some bookshelf speakers do have excellent mid-bass capability. However a floorstanding speaker with two 6.5" or 8" woofers will typically have the woofers crossed over to the midrange unit at 250Hz or higher, much higher for a two way speaker so all other things being equal tower speakers crossed over to a sub at 80Hz will have the capability of delivering a more tactile midbass performance than a bookshelf speaker set using one woofer per box will have when similarly crossed over to a sub.

 

[BruceD]

Keith,

When I went looking for speakers, I demoed the Dynaudio Contour 1.3MKII, but the 1.3SE wasn't out yet. I also demoed the Confidence 5, (ouch$$$) that sure was a mistake.

When I got a chance to buy the Contour 2.8 (which were out of production) I jumped and have been in heaven ever since.

I liked the 2.8 (no port) better than the 1.3MKII because the 2.8 had more articulate bass and female vocals to die for, but never compared them to a 1.3SE. That's probably how I'll leave it.

 

[KeithR]

Bruce,
The 2.8 is the only Contour with an Esotar tweeter, hence my interest...the Confidence I have seen, but not heard, as I heard you need an arc welder to drive
However, that said, when the new C2 comes out...I have a feeling I will be auditioning later this year! Although at 12k, it better be impressive...

 

[David Judah]

(emphasis added) so all other things being equal tower speakers crossed over to a sub at 80Hz will have the capability of delivering a more tactile midbass performance than a bookshelf speaker set using one woofer per box will have when similarly crossed over to a sub.

Exactly--as I have said three times, and it is not just mid-bass that is improved. The midrange is cleaner, as well. Maybe it'll be better understood the way you put it.
It was demonstrated to me quite effectively several years ago at my B&W dealer with the 600 series speakers. As we moved up the line from 601's to 604's the midbass & midrange opened up going from the 2-way 601's & 602's to the 2.5-way 603's and the 3-way 604's. The benefits are obvious if you think about what goes on with a 2-way, 2.5-way, and a 3-way speaker.
The same effect was again demonstrated when I returned last year to upgrade to the CDM series.
Now, Keith brings up a good point about crossovers. If the speaker's internal crossovers are not implemented well, then all bets are off.
DJ

 

[shankar]

Many of you prefer towers because of the seamless transition between the speakers and the subwoofres at around 80Hz. Is 80Hz the critical frequency? What happens:

• When you let the AV reciever handle the bass management and you cannot crossover at 80Hz?

My Pioneer has crossovers at 100, 150 or 200 Hz. When I set it at 100Hz, does that defeat the phenomenon mentioned above?

• What happens when you bi-wire your towers? Does that not beat the speaker's internal cross over circuit?

In that case Would ALL of you tower owners recommend against biwiring?

 

[Dzung Pham]

What happens when you bi-wire your towers? Does that not beat the speaker's internal cross over circuit?

No, it doesn't. To defeat the internal crossover on most speakers, you would have to physically open up the speaker and remove the crossover.

As for 80Hz, it is the THX recommended crossover frequency, and it is the generally accepted frequency below which bass can no longer be localized.

Regarding additional drivers, the other side of the coin is that each additional driver does make the speaker more complex and requires the addition of another crossover. I don't think these are trivial design issues.

 

[Philip Hamm]

Wow shankar seems to have hit a nerve with tower speaker owners here! Lots of very defensive posts.
Personally when I bought my B&W DM602s I auditioned the 601, 603, and 604 models as well. I felt that the difference in price was not justifiable for the 603 and 604 models as far as I was concerned. The 602s sounded just as good or better for half the price!!! And with a little studying I found that the 602s had the same drivers as well. No wonder they sounded so good.
If you like towers that's fine, they look neat, sound great (at least as good as in-line monitors), and cast a very impressive visage on a Home Theater. Me, I'll stick with monitors for the forseeable future. I think that the value per dollar on monitors is extremely high.
I've been in a few studio recording situations, and I never have seen towers in use. Not once. Believe me the way these guys are anal about sound if they needed towers they would find a way to make them work. Sometimes there is a very sophisticated custom in-wall installation, but never towers, always monitors.

 

[Brian Schucher]

How bout this monkey wrench into the conversation... "POWERED TOWERS""???? Now where are we at weith regards to using towers?

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Philip,

I already explained why Studios use Monitors. If you stop

and think about it with common sense there is a reason why

studios use Monitors.

Recordind studios always place thier speakers within inches

of the mixer's ears atop the mixing console. It does not

take a rocket scientist the come to the conclusion that a

tower simply would NOT work since they have to be at ear

level while the mixer is sitting at the console.

And that is IMHO the ONLY reason you see Monitors used at

Mixing consoles. Monitors (mini or other wise) have absolutely

no benefits over Towers other than "size" and that is the

only advantage.

 

[Michael R Price]

The issue is not if the bookshelf can extend down to 50-60Hz, but whether it can deliver clean bass output at higher levels. A bookshelf speaker with a single 6.5" woofer (or maybe even 8") is definitely going to have trouble with heavy midbass in the 60-80Hz range, causing distortion and worsened quality in bass and especially midrange (caused by IMD).

A powered tower IMO should simply be considered as a near full range tower speaker. (A very expensive one, I may add.)

 

[shankar]

By powered towers, we mean something that has a subwoofer built in such as the AR-9 right?
Look at its frequency response spec. Frequency response: 32Hz - 23KHz ± 2dB
On the other hand the S40 which is an ordinary 2 way speaker boasts a frequency response of 26 Hz-20 kHz ± 3dB. How is this possible? How can the S40 go oower tha the AR9 with a sub??

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Shakar,

Trust me none of the Stature Series from AR compare to the

Hi-Res Series. Somewhere along the line AR fudged the specs

on the Stature Series and they have yet to correct the specs

on the web site.

The AR9's infact go lower than 32Hz it's just that when you

dip into the 25-26Hz Range your SPL output will dip from

100Db to proably 50-80Db at best (at 26Hz).

The AR9's do not use a "Powered" Sub, the AR5's are the same

as the AR9 but they employ a pair of Carver/Sunfire Mono TDC

Amps, one in each cabinent that supply the 10" subs with 150 watts

RMS each.

The AR9's have to rely on your Receiver or Seperates to

supply the power (which is actualy a more flexible setup than

built in powered subs) either setup can work equaly as well

but the AR9's are "easier" to work with because you can supply

the subs with a good steady 150 watts RMS from a pair of

solid state MonoBlocks or a stereo amp and use a good 7-10

watt RMS S.E.T Tube Amp to run the Mids/Highs.

 

[MarkO]

So lets get this straight,,, The only reason we have monitors, which have to be placed on stands, and take up the same anount of floospace as floor standers is enclosure size? Does anyone else here feel like banging there head up against the wall after reading some of the responces in this thread?

 

[JerryW]

To be honest, I believe the main reason people go with bookshelves over towers is price. Yes, a good set of towers that will go down to 20Hz (+/-3dB) cost a bundle. The other caveat is taming room responses, and if you don't have a parametric EQ you're screwed.
Trust me gentlemen, if I hadn't gotten my Preludes at an incredible discount there's no way in hell that I would spend that kind of money on full-range speakers.

 

[KeithR]

"Monitors (mini or other wise) have absolutely

no benefits over Towers other than "size" and that is the

only advantage."

You sir, have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you should go hear a decent monitor to understand your ignorance in the matter.