Why do some companies receivers leave off B-speaker? Marantz, HK, etc

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Aaron H, Aug 14, 2002.

  1. Aaron H

    Aaron H Supporting Actor

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    Hi everyone,

    I've been searching for a receiver for my first set up. One of the main requirements is that the receiver has to have B-speaker terminals to drive a pair of speakers on the back porch. This will be a mainly music only system, as the real home theater will be upstairs. Although I still want to be able to watch TV/movies on this system.

    When searching around for a "musical" receiver, I see recommendations for the Marantz and HK receivers mostly. And as far as I can tell, neither of these companies have B-speaker terminals. Anyone know why this is? I also found the Arcam AVR-100 for a really cheap price, but again, it doesn't have the extra speaker outs.

    Aaron
     
  2. Aaron H

    Aaron H Supporting Actor

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    I also forgot to mention that I had talked to a salesman at one of the local stores, and he said you can get around the absense of a b-speaker terminal by using the TAPE OUT and an external amp, which would be pretty cool. Its always fun to have more toys. The b-speaker on the back porch is pre-wired for a volume control, so I guess that's taken care of.

    Also wondering your opinion on this type of setup. Would I be able to have the same CD/radio/etc on for both the inside and outside speakers with this setup?

    Aaron
     
  3. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    Using the tape out (analog) to another amp will work, as will using one of the digital outs to another receiver.

     
  4. Yogi

    Yogi Screenwriter

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but if you used tape-outs to an amplifier, how are you going to control the volume? I thought that tape-out sends the signal at a fixed (usually very small) level. I have never tried this so pardon my ignorance.
     
  5. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    This is why he said he already has the outdoor speakers pre-wired with a volume control (not exactly sure how that works, but he says it's there.)
     
  6. Aaron H

    Aaron H Supporting Actor

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    Yogi,

    Thankfully I had a volume-control prewire installed. So I guess I'm set.

    Now just trying to decide whether to go with a receiver with no B-outputs with an amp, or a receiver that does have the b-speaker outputs. Those mutli-zone things sound kinda cool. Just don't know if I'll need it.

    I figure, for all of the raging parties we have, I guess if the speakers with music are on in the house, we'd want te same music on the porch. And for the Gator football games, if the game is on the TV, we'd want that on out on the porch, too. So I can't quite decide whether I need the multi-zone or not.

    Aaron
     
  7. Yogi

    Yogi Screenwriter

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  8. Aaron H

    Aaron H Supporting Actor

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    Uh-oh. [​IMG]
    No, the volume control is inbetween the source and the speaker. There's 16/4 wire behind where the receiver will go, then, as far as I know, it runs to the volume control box, and then to the speakers.
    Maybe the TAPE OUT theory will not work as I had thought. I'm sure glad you guys are around to help me from buying stuff that won't work with my setup.
    So what other choice do I have? Either buy a receiver with the B-speaker terminals, or a receiver, amp, and some volume control device right at the equipment location? Then I guess the $60 volume control pre-wire becomes kinda useless.
    Man........
    Aaron
     
  9. Yogi

    Yogi Screenwriter

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    Hmmm... now I am confused even more. If the volume control box is after the amplifier then its useless. The amplifier needs some variable input and all it will do is amplify it by a certain amount. The amplifier by itself cannot act as a variable volume control (unless its an integrated amp). Could it be possible that the volume control itself has some (IC, op-amp) amplification (few watts) built into it. In that case you wont need an amplifier at all. I dont know anything about volume control boxes so someone will have to jump in. I might be missing something, in which case it wouldn't be the first time.
     
  10. Aaron H

    Aaron H Supporting Actor

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    Yogi, I'm sorry. I guess I am confused, so I shouldn't be talking about something I really don't understand. I was **under the assumption** that the volume control was between the equipment and speakers. Maybe it's wiring differently. Hopefully someone who knows about volume controls will be able to jump in here.

    And again, this is just a pre-wire, so I can really put any type of device in the gang box that will work. But the way they sold it to me was hook the speaker wires up from the source, put a volume control in, and then I'd be able to adjust the volume from the porch. I guess I just assumed it was inbetween the end points.

    Aaron
     
  11. Juan M

    Juan M Stunt Coordinator

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    I, too, am interested in a receiver with B out and was bummed to find that most Marantz and HK didn't have this. Receivers with multi-source capability are a bit out of my price range. The other option is just to get a separate speaker switch so you can either run your indoor or outdoor speakers. I think this should also be compatible with your volume control.
     
  12. sam_canavo

    sam_canavo Stunt Coordinator

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    I have a panasonic sh-e9 and it has both a and b speakers for just the same reasons Arron you are looking for I have speakers on the deck. The now have out the she-100 take a look great little receiver.
     
  13. sam_canavo

    sam_canavo Stunt Coordinator

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    I have a panasonic sh-e9 and it has both a and b speakers for just the same reasons Arron you are looking for I have speakers on the deck. The now have out the she-100 take a look great little receiver.
     
  14. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    A friend of mine runs his setup with a speaker selector switch also, works fine.
     
  15. Hanwook_K

    Hanwook_K Stunt Coordinator

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    No Receiver has 5.1 + 2 speaker capability
    The A and B speaker is really got to do with amplifiers and cost. MOST HT receivers that have A and B do not allow you to run A and B at the same time while one of the is doing 5.1. And previously stated typically only one source. Unless it is a dual source HT receiver which are typciall more money.
    Volume Control
    AMP -> Volume Control -> Speaker
    This simply increases the resistance thus lowering the volume. Thus THIS volume control can only go as loud as the AMP is putting out. It short it is like a faucet - it resistricts flow.
    (these devices are typically only rated for a 15-30 watts. Generally this extra energy is dispated as heat)
    Volume Control -> amp -> Speaker
    This setup tells the amp how much juice it should put out. This is like the people that control the electrical pumps that create the water pressure and flow.
    Option for multisource
    I bought a $100 stereo receiver sherwood from CC. I hooked up the TV, the tape-outs (not pre-outs as they are variable) from the HT receiver, and CD player using some split-y and of course it has its own tuner built in. I bought a remote leap frog so I can use the remote outside. This provides you with the greatest flexibility (plus this receiver has A and B that can be switched from the remote.)
     
  16. Aaron H

    Aaron H Supporting Actor

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    Ya know, this almost seems like its going to be more trouble than its worth, just to get the receiver I really want (the Arcam) to work with this setup. Someone also suggested an integrated amp connected to the TAPE OUT.

    Then I go and look at the Denon 1803, which is hopefully going to be under $500 and is multi-source and multi-zone. Seems almost too easy.....

    Aaron
     
  17. Hanwook_K

    Hanwook_K Stunt Coordinator

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    1803 ... it has 6 channels of amplification. If you want 6 channels HT, you need to buy another amp. Otherwise the 6th channel is assignable to the second zone and it is stereo.
     
  18. Aaron H

    Aaron H Supporting Actor

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    Yeah, for this setup, I'll only have the L/R/C running, so I guess this receiver should run the B-speakers fine without an additional amp, or so I understand.

    Aaron
     
  19. Matt Jesty

    Matt Jesty Second Unit

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    Several points...
    1.) If a rcvr doesn't have A and B or has them but doesn't allow them to run at the same time then it USUALLY means that the amp (in the rcvr) wouldn't do well with a 4ohm load...not a good sign...like cheap sonys (non ES), stay away from 'em
    2.)Now giving Joe 6pk a "B" SPEAKER that WILL RUN SIMULTANIUSLY with "A" is USUALLY a recipe for disaster....if "A" IS on (along with surround) the "B" will only play the left/right channels out on the deck (ie; no vocals in PLII)...further more, installing an external volume control on "B" would only be useful if you wanted "B" to play lower in volume than "A" ,unlikely in an outdoor scenario. Also, whenever someone else adjusts the rcvr volume the "b" speakers will likewise be affected...Not to mention the prospect of having to listen to the front L/R channels of Star Wars sans video out on the deck...or the inherent low-end amp "crap-out" after the umphteen engagement of 7/8 speakers off one mediocre power supply....
    3.) Indeed tape outs will NOT solve many of these problems because a straight (non-integrated) amp wants a "gained" signal and line level feeds often do not have enough juice to run at levels neccesary for outdoors...Pre-outs are gained but,alas, at the same level as the master volume and when we turn it up loud enough for outside it is TOO loud for indoors......
    4.)All these reasons are why ,if you have ANY inclination to EVER run additional speakers off an HT rcvr, you are well advised to buy a unit that has Multi-room/Multi-zone capabilities.....
    5.)Also , be wary of the ones that have the "EXTRA" amps on-board, these amps still share the same "mid-fi" power supply.....
     
  20. Hanwook_K

    Hanwook_K Stunt Coordinator

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    Aaron,
    The 1803 for all intensive purposes has 6 amps.
    1. One for the left main
    2. One for the center
    3. One for the right main
    4. One for the left rear
    5. One for the right rear
    6. One for the back center left
    7. One fot the back center right
    (6 and 7 either running in parrallel - I think)
    Only Number 6 and 7 can be used for the outside (my understand is that these are MONO, not stereo) So you can still have a complete 5.1 setup in the HT room.
    With regards to mono - its not a big deal. I actually sometimes prefer it that way outside, because depending on where you're guests are they might not be sitting in the sweetspot [​IMG]
     

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