why do analog outs sound better than digital??? (1 Viewer)

[Ben Hanrahan]

I recently bought a HK AVR520 and was really disappointed with stereo sound...I mean REALLY disappointed. The stereo sound was annoying and harsh, I was quite mad. I talked to my retailer and he said to be sure to use the analog outs from my dvd player when playing stereo music. I went home and switched and the difference was like night and day, I had a nice smooth, warm sound. Why is this???? The AVR claims to have top quality dac's and that digital connections will offer the best sound quality, but it's simply not the case. My retailer did not seem the least bit surprised by this, he said "Trust me, always use the analog outs for cd's". I was wondering if anyone can explain this finding...And please don't tell me that the dac's in my dvd player (panasonic rp56) are better than the dacs in the HK 520, because that isn't the case.

Ben

 

[Larry B]

Ben:

And please don't tell me that the dac's in my dvd player (panasonic rp56) are better than the dacs in the HK 520, because that isn't the case.

It doesn't matter what I (or anyone else, for that matter) tell you, as you have just proven that it is the case.
On the other hand, it is possible that your digital cable is of low quality, or that the digital outs (on the CD player) or digital ins (on your DVD player) are defective.
Larry

 

[John Garcia]

It doesn't matter what I (or anyone else, for that matter) tell you, as you have just proven that it is the case.

Agreed. I think you answered your own question.

 

[Ben Hanrahan]

I don't want to flame anybody, but the reasons you suggest are wrong. Suggesting the quality of a digital cable is an absolute joke. I'm just trying to let people know that analog connections can still be a good thing and in the case of stereo, I think they're the best thing.

Ben

 

[Ben Hanrahan]

I want someone to explain to me why this is the case. And my receivers dac's aren't defective! I'm probably talking about something that the average person wouldn't even notice, unless they were very in tune with their gear and home theater in general. But I feel that this is something that people should know because everyone out there should be getting the best performance possible out of their gear. I'm looking for a real technical explanation, not "check your connections" or "try using a Monster Cable" etc etc, I'm tired of seeing that obvious response to serious questions.

Ben

 

[Larry B]

Ben:

Two points:

1.

Suggesting the quality of a digital cable is an absolute joke.

Oh, and why is that?

2. I think you have just discovered something fairly well known, namely that it makes sense to test both DACs to see which one you prefer. Why you prefer the one(s) in your DVD player over that (those) in your receiver is probably unanswerable; it's like asking why you prefer Coke to Pepsi. Neither soft drink is defective; you just happen to prefer one to the other.

Or to use a more relevant example, why do you prefer the sound of Harmon Kardon receivers over that of say, Yamahas? Or one brand of speaker over another?

Although your post suggests that you are experienced in HT, for some reason you are overlooking the fact that tastes in audio reproduction are by their very nature, subjective.

Larry

P.S. In truth, I doubt that your DACs are defective, but how can you be so sure?

 

[Philip Hamm]

Ben,

I think your retailer is full of shit and I suspect that something's wrong. Though it is possible (however unlikely) that the Panasonic DACs could sound better, the difference should be subtle, not "night and day" as you describe. When listening to the H/K DACs make sure that all tone controls and DSPs are bypassed. When listening to the DVD player DACs make sure that in stereo mode your receiver is in some kind of "analog bypass" mode. If not, the signal is being digitized and run through the H/K DACs anyway. Try the stereo outs from your DVD player into the L/R of the 5.1 channel inputs on the receiver and see what that sounds like. Most of the time the bass management (redirection of low frequency sounds to the sub) does not work on the 5.1 ins or in "direct mode".

 

[John Royster]

for what its worth...

I don't like the sound of my denon3802 dacs when using a PCM source. I have tested, calibrated, tested, had GF switch on me when I'm out of the room and immediately tell her which DAC is being used.

I prefer using the analog connection out of my CD player (adcom). you could also try another cable for the digital connection and rule that out.

As to why? well the way I see it a PCM 2-channel DAC has a very specific purpose and as such could excel at that purpose (constant clock, oversampling, one format/framing).

the DACs in receivers have a myriad of format/timing/encoding options and hence are more complex. I'm just guessing. But I still from time to time switch to CD digital --- yep...still sounds the same...back to analog.

I have a pannyRP56 as well. Maybe I'll do the digital/analog comparison tonight and let you know if I'm seeing the same thing as well. I would be surprised if the rp56 has decent DACs.

 

[Ron Reda]

I don't like the sound of my denon3802 dacs when using a PCM source.

Ha, ha...I agree that it's all a matter of preference! For example, when I recently hooked up my newly acquired Musical Fidelity A3 CDP to my 3802 via analog connections, I noticed that the soundstage got narrower than when I was using the digital coax connection to connect my Panny RP91 to the 3802. Now, as far as CD playback goes, I feel that the A3's DACs *toast* the 3802's DACs in every other aspect, but I kinda miss the width of the soundstage that the 3802 throws out. However, it wasn't enough to make me switch back to a digital connection!

 

[Larry B]

Phil:

When listening to the DVD player DACs make sure that in stereo mode your receiver is in some kindof "analog bypass" mode. If not, the signal is being digitized and run through the H/K DACs anyway.

Edited for clarity:

If this is the case, then when using the analogue out from the DVD player (which he prefers), he is introducing an additional A-->D and D-->A conversion, which would degrade the sound. I don't see how this can explain the results. Am I missing something?

Larry

 

[John Garcia]

Ben,

IMO, The only way you should have a night and day difference is if something is configured differently between the two or incorrectly. I know, you SAID you know how to configure your system, and I don't doubt that, but the difference you are talking about should not be. BOTH the Panny and HK should have good DACs that should both produce quality sound. What is your setting for digital out on the Panny? Are you sending bitstream/DD/downmix/etc...? I am not familiar with the 56s congig, but the HKs DACs may not like whatever setting you are using currently.

I had a similar problem with DD vs DTS - my DTS sounded spectacular, but DD sounded "flat". I KNOW there is not that much difference between the two, so I checked out my setup and after switching it, the two are difficult to tell apart. (was set to PCM and should have been bitstream or vice versa, I don't remember)

You also did not state what mode(s) you are listening in. ANY DSP could skew the results. Processing on either method could very easily give you a noticable difference in sound.

FWIW, I recently purchased a Marantz CC-4000 CDP, and used it in both analog and coax dig. They sounded nearly identical to me, with a slightly smoother sound via analog, so I stuck with it.

 

[Ron Reda]

John Garcia,

was set to PCM and should have been bitstream or vice versa, I don't remember...

Good point...I had to do the same on my Panny RP91.

 

[Ben Hanrahan]

I was listening to both in "stereo", yah, that's right, good old fashioned stereo. I don't like any dsp's when listening to a stereo recording, I think they're all gimmicky and really only on there to market to people who think it'll sound like a "hall" or a "stadium".

Speakers set to large, no subwoofer, on both tests. The digital connection must create jitter which cause a slight harshness to the higher frequencies and a slight loss in detail....at least that's the type of info that I've been able to surmise thus far.

I 100% know that my retailer is not full of shit, he's a little eccentric but he absolutely knows his shit. We're not talking about circuit city here folks....Furthermore, he knew it would sound better with the analog outs, but I think he said that the digital connection with a cd player would sound fine, must be something to do with jitter in dvd players.

 

[Ted Lee]

A conversion,

i want to be sure i'm not missing something basic here. my understanding is:

1. if the digital out from the player is being used, then the receiver does the d/a decoding.

2. if the analog out from the player is being used, then the player's internal d/a is doing the decoding.

are there ever exceptions to this?

 

[Larry B]

Ted:

i want to be sure i'm not missing something basic here. my understanding is:

1. if the digital out from the player is being used, then the receiver does the d/a decoding.

2. if the analog out from the player is being used, then the player's internal d/a is doing the decoding.

are there ever exceptions to this?

No, there are not any exceptions. However, one caveat is that if your receiver does not have analogue pass-through, then an analogue signal is converted to digital, then back to analogue. This is why an analogue pass-through is essential for SACD; otherwise, the high-resolution signal will be converted to low-resolution.

Larry

 

[Ted Lee]

thanks larry!

would you say the pass-through is more of a feature or a norm for todays receivers/pre-pros?

 

[John Garcia]

Most receivers I've seen in the last few years that have multi-channel analog input have a bypass or direct feature. Even older DD "ready" receivers had this, as DVD players with built in decoding would handle all the effects, speaker timing and sound levels, which meant the receiver didn't need to do anything but amplify and control overall volume.

 

[Philip Hamm]

Definitely a feature. Unfortunately there are still companies whose receivers simply digitize everything that they receive through analog connections.
One of the favorite aspects of my pre/pro is its handling of analog stereo sources.

 

[Ted Lee]

thanks guys! this is something i've never really considered...glad to learn about it!

 

[John Tompkins]

Well, I had an experience that was just the opposite of Bens.
I had the sony 555es sacd player which is highly renowned for its dacs for Redbook play back. I was using a denon 4802 as my pre. I slightly preferred the digital connection using the 4802s dacs over the sony dacs via analog out. I know this isnt a popular statement but thats the way it was.
The denons dacs were warmer then the sony 555es dacs. The sonys dacs made the music a little to sharp to my ears {and my sons and a co-worker}
sacd was another story