Why are tube amps better? (1 Viewer)

[KeithR]

It all depends on what concept in this hobby you have faith in more: accuracy or musicality.

All this talk about specs, distortion, flat frequency response, etc. has nothing to deal with the real deal. Go to your favorite dealer, get two amps on the same system and make the comparison. Put on a female vocal ala Rebecca Pidgeon, and 9 out of 10 times I know what you will prefer...

I know of many people who have gone from ss to tube, but have heard of no one going the opposite way, unless for other, non-sonic constraints (child safety etc.)

BTW, there are tube amps that don't roll of the highs and that have thunderous bass that most characterize ss to have. The BAT VK75SE comes to mind, as well as the new CAT JL2.

For more moderate budgets, I recommend the Cary V12 (which I own fwiw), where even my best friend who is all ss says it is the best amp he has heard period--no loss of detail. 50watts triode runs my Dynaudio 1.3SEs to scorching high levels despite the 86dbs into 6 ohm rating of the speaker. Buy a tube amp with a great power supply, and you wont have problems.

Also, fwiw, Dennis Had of Cary himself runs 25w tube amps on Nautilus 801s and 804s...and had supposedly one of the best sounding rooms at CES.

The problem is that everyone thinks things need so much power...and they fail to realize that they only use a few watts at a time anyways...

 

[Larry B]

Keith:

It all depends on what concept in this hobby you have faith in more: accuracy or musicality.

I agree completely with you. I would also like to add that I question whether the supposed "accuracy" that CD lovers rave about is truly accurate.

And to paraphrase something Saurav said, it's noteworthy that many CD proponents argue for its superiority based on specs, while those of us who prefer vinyl base do do because of the way the music sounds, and the emotion it conveys.

Larry

 

[Steve Zimmerman]

I know of many people who have gone from ss to tube, but have heard of no one going the opposite way, unless for other, non-sonic constraints (child safety etc.)

*Everybody* went from tube to SS. The whole darn industry did. I'm not denigrating people who prefer the sound of tubes; I'm simply too skeptical to think that the sole reason that tubes are all the rage right now is due to their sound. It's my opinion that part of it is sentimentality and fad. Disagree if you wish.

And Dennis Had is *selling* those tube amps, so it only makes sense that he would say nice things about them.

Are you suggesting that he just now found out about tubes? Doesn't he (and all the other folks in the industry who are moving back to tubes) have enough expertise that he would have known about tubes 20 years ago?

Society has changed in the last 20 years but the sound of tubes has not.

--Steve

 

[Larry B]

Steve:

Society has changed in the last 20 years but the sound of tubes has not.

If you ever have the opportunity, listen to Lamm tube gear. Virtually everyone agrees that they are about the best ever made.
http://lammindustries.com/
Larry

 

[MannyE]

WEll I don;t know about you guys, but here's what convinced me..
Sony S-300 DVD player into B&K Ref 30 into Outlaw 750 into Definitive Technologies BP2002s sounded OK on stereo music..replaced DVD player with MMF-5 Turntable into Radio Shack "Little Rat" and was surprised it sounded better than I expected... Still...violins did not sound "real", Piano, flutes, many other non-electric/electronic instruments were lacking "something".
Total cost for this system...over 6K including cables (yikes! I had never added it all up before this post!)
SO I read about Bottlehead products as a cheap way to try tubes and spend a fun weekend building a kit.
I set up a Foreplay Preamp, Paramour Monoblocks (3.5 watts) the MMF-5 TT and got me a pair of Ed's Horns (a small rear-loaded horn speaker...looks like a regular floor stander)
All I can say is that with no real preference for tubes or SS, and with the SS system I have looking MUCH cooler (so looks weren't a factor...although afterwards, I tweaked the Bottlehead stuff so now it looks very cool ) The tube system DESTROYED the SS system above in realistic reproduction of stereo music... total cost was around 1900 bucks...so not exactly cheap but a lot less than the HT system!
Points to ponder...
ALthough the tube system sounds better with music that uses mostly acoustic instruments, I find that on really big stuff like pipe organs and full orchestras, the little tube amps and 4inch driver is lacking...in these cases I usually fire up the big SS stuff.
Also electronica just kinda sounds "off" with the tube system Bjork, for example..I need to have big subs working when I listen to her stuff.
The tube system is a stereo music system only...the HT is both, and SS or not, kicks total ass for movies...and the music reproduction isn't bad at all...
So I don't think it's about tube amps being better overall than SS amps, just better suited for certain things. Ditto sand amps are better in certain situations...potato potahto

 

[Saurav]

*Everybody* went from tube to SS. The whole darn industry did. I'm not denigrating people who prefer the sound of tubes; I'm simply too skeptical to think that the sole reason that tubes are all the rage right now is due to their sound. It's my opinion that part of it is sentimentality and fad. Disagree if you wish.

Maybe it's a fad, maybe it's swinging back. Who knows. We'll need several more years, maybe a few decades, before we can make that call. I agree with you, there has been a very small niche of vinyl/tube/horn users, but recently these have been getting much more mainstream attention. And at this point, I certainly think it's too early to say that everyone's going back to tubes.

Sentimentality - I'm 27 years old, and the first tube amp I ever experienced was the one I bought recently. My parents had some vinyl, though we listened to tapes more because that vinyl was so noisy, but there's still some possibility of sentimentality there. With tubes though, I wonder - how many people of my generation grew up with tubes?

 

[kevitra]

"The problem is that everyone thinks things need so much power...and they fail to realize that they only use a few watts at a time anyways... "

I just picked up a pair of Antique Sound labs Wave 8s (10w, $100 each). They are my first venture into tubes.

My other amp is a Rotel 985 (110x5 THX). The speakers are ACI Sapphire IIIs (90db, 6ohm).

The Waves are able to play as loud as my Rotel (at least as loud as I listen). I haven't tried to hit 100db with them, but for realistic listening levels they work great.

As far as sound, they have great bass extension and do not roll off the trebel (high-hats sound very crisp). I haven't had them long enough to say the 'blow away' the Rotel, but they are sweet, and for $200 you can't find much better.

 

[Larry B]

There has always been a large contingent of audiophiles who never switched to SS (or if they did, they quickly reverted to tubes), just as there has always been a contingent which stuck with vinyl. As high-fidelity electronics have become
become more accessible, and thus more "mainstream," more and more music lovers have "discovered" the joys of tubes and vinyl.
So you see, it's not a fad, it's not a gimmick and it's not sentimentality. Rather, it's about the sound and about the music.
Larry

 

[Saurav]

kevitra,

Glad to hear you're enjoying the Waves. I was pretty surprised at how loud they could play too, and my speakers are only 88dB. In fact, I borrowed them from a dealer for a week to make sure that they'd be powerful enough for me. They also sound a lot smoother than the NAD C340 they replaced, and they cost the same at MSRP as what I paid for the NAD used.

If you're handy with a soldering iron, I would recommend trying out the coupling capacitor upgrade after a few months. I did that last weekend, and it made quite an improvement for a $30 investment.

 

[Larry B]

Saurav:

I did that last weekend, and it made quite an improvement for a $30 investment.

I want to see the results of the DBT substantiating that conclusion.
Larry

 

[Saurav]

OK. I closed both my eyes (to ensure it was double blind) and listened to the amps after the cap swap, and thought they sounded better. Is that good enough?

 

[John Garn]

In considering tubes vs. solid state, one must understand that mating components homogenously is more important than anything else. Tubes distort differently than transistors and in general, tubes do offer a more pleasing and warm sound to the human ear. I've been told that a tubes distortion is actually appealing to the human ear while a distorting transistor sounds harsh and plastic.

When mated with speakers (generally of high quality design but not necessarily large) tubes can produce a much more detailed, airy and realistic image--IMHO. When considering tube amps one must also understand that certain brands of speakers sound great with SS but sound mushy and undefined with tubes (B&W). Putting a pair of 801's on tubes will just never work--at least IMHO. The 801's are too power hungry and just aren't a good match. The 801's need something like an AR-D110b or something I once had as a dealer, the Leach Super Amp mono blocks at 300 watts RMS per side.

Over the years there have been some superb tube amps....the Audio Research D-79b, the Berning 60 watt amp and the EAR 509 monoblocks. BUT--you needed to be speaker sensitive. Also, tube amps do better with vocals, pianos, and delicate type music. Hard rock.....keep it in the SS domain.

In the mid 80's I put together a tube based system after a lot of trial and effort. I put a regular cut LP on and heard details and air I never knew were on the LP. I could actually hear the notes come out of the artists chest. And, everytime I turned the system on, I got goose bumps it sounded that awesome.

I've never again ever heard anything nearly as good and that was in the mid 80's. If I had the time, money and the inclination (and component availability) I'd like one day to try again.

For those afficianados, the system was:

preamp: CJ pv-2a hybrid

amps: EAR 509 tube monoblocks (100w /side)

Table: Denon DP-75, Fulton mat, VPI Iso base, Technics EPA 500 arm, Dynavector DV-17d cartridge and Audio Interface CST-80 passive headamp;

and the crown jewels: A pair of Spica TC-50's ($500/pr) mated with an Audio Pro B2-40 active sub.

Another note: When CD's first came out there was constant bantering over a CD's sampling rate and its ability to reproduce the nuances and detail available from an LP. To my way of thinking, I've still got some master LPs and direct to disc LP's that blow away any CD I've heard. The digital age is with us........but I'm still not sure if it has totally arrived. Maybe the SACD's and better convertors will get it there.

Most people today won't want to fuss with tubes.....they are a bit of a pain to maintain (tubes are getting harder to find and to replace) but for those who've heard what they can do, well, it's like a bottle of fine wine. Once tasted, nothing else ever is as good.

 

[Larry B]

Saurav:

Is that good enough?

Gee, I thought double-blind meant neither you nor the component knew which was playing.
John:
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. They certainly resonated well with me.
Larry

 

[Frank_S]

I read through this thread and basicaly I see that there is a lot of mention of "tubes are retro", tube lovers being sentimental toward old technology or just making themselves believe tubes are better than SS.
Personally, I seek to get the most of the music I listen too, period! I am not a youngster, I am not a no it all, been there done that kind of guy, however I have been fortunate to experience a lot of music played back on a lot of different systems over the years and at this point in time I am back using tube gear and listening to vinyl.
Why?, because the last few years left me frustrated after auditioning and/or purchasing several CD players(Cary, Arcam, Rega)DAC's (Theta, Classe)None of those pricey DAC's or CDP's made me happy so I went back to vinyl and tubes, not to be retro or sentimental, just to enjoy music! I have a decent system now, although I'm still working on it.
I currently use a SS amp to power my N804's but I have a tube preamp(EAR864)and Rega P3 with Koetsu Black cart. For the first time in ages, I can listen to music for hours without being bored or suffer fatigue from the brittleness or harshness presented all too often in poor CD source material. Of course some vinyl recordings suffer similar problems but overall I choose vinyl as my primary music source. I am not saying vinyl/tubes are superior, I'll leave that for the EE's and technical geeks to fight that one out. Enjoy the music in any way you see fit, it's just that simple.

 

[Lin Park]

Steve said:

Sorry but to me, tube = boring romantic. I don't even remember hearing any tube amp that rocks, the big VTL stuff included. Solid-state amp technology has been improving significantly, surpassing its early shortcomings. So I don't see any reason FOR ME to go back to the technology of my father's teenage years, kinda like leaping backwards. Well, I'm speaking only for myself and I respect all tube-o-philes.

I'll bet your father wasn't listening to SlipKnot or Ludacris though, probably something more romantic like Frank Sinatra or Billie Holiday.
Lin

 

[Saurav]

A Koetsu with a P3? That's interesting... though I just checked prices on that cartridge, and they're not quite as astronomical as I thought they would be

 

[Frank_S]

"A Koetsu with a P3? That's interesting"
It may seem like overkill but the P3 does very well with this cart. I had an Aurum Beta-s until I bent the cantilever. My dealer(The Analog Room)suggested I try the Koetsu, he said I could return it if I did'nt notice a big improvement.
This cart. really beings LP's to life. I will be upgrading my TT soon so the Koetsu will be moving on to that table.

 

[Saurav]

Hmm.... I vacillated for a long time between the Aurum Beta S and the Dynavector 10x4 (based on reviews, I don't have anywhere I can easily listen to them), and finally got the Dyna. No regrets whatsoever. The fact that I got it new at a used price (someone had bought it but hadn't mounted it) was a big factor. I would definitely expect a Koetsu to be in a different league.

 

[Dave_Olds]

Preaching to the choir...!!! I am a guitarist and I can really tell the difference between Tube & SS for guitar tones. I have been quite surprised in the obsession with tubes in HT. Tube amps sound best when driven to the point of clipping. EL34 are more desireable than 6L6's. Why? Because they reach the clipping stage faster. The even order harmonics are blissful in guitar playing.

Although I will not doubt the love of tubes and the warmth they provide, I think they are pros and cons to both sides. I would not be hesitant to use SS in HT applications. The large amount of versatility they possess is very desireable. Yet, I would love to try tubes if the opportunity presents itself in a value-based manner (unlikely).....

As for guitar, tubes are the only way I will EVER acquire a worthwhile tone.

 

[Saurav]

Gee, I thought double-blind meant neither you nor the component knew which was playing.

That's not double blind, that's fundamental existential problems. Blindness is about seeing what is playing, it has nothing to do with knowing what is playing. To do it right, you shouldn't be able to see the component, and the component shouldn't be able to see you. So cover up all the blinky lights, and then close your eyes - that's double blind.

P.S. Incidentally, doing this does sometimes improve the appreciation of music, especially in a darkened room.

P.P.S. Glowing tubes aren't blinky lights, so don't cover those up. Uncovered tubes keep you warm too.