Why are DVD-Rs only 4.3 GB?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by John_Berger, Jul 8, 2002.

  1. John_Berger

    John_Berger Cinematographer

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    Okay, I know. They're "technically" 4.7 GB raw, but after formatting and prepping for writing they're actually closer to 4.3 GB of formetted capacity.

    Anyhoo... I was wondering who the genius was that determined that 4.7GB is to be the "standard" capacity? Obviously, professional DVDs can be up to 9 GB per side. For those of us who try to make our own DVDs of respectable quality, 4.7 GB is a pretty tight fit. Obviously, we could have a much higher bit rate if we were allowed to utilize greater capacity on the discs.

    What bothers me is that since DVD-Rs can be read by standard DVD players, the format is obviously compatible. Why are not the disc capacities?

    If this is another one of Hollywood's "We're paranoid about piracy" stipulations on recordable DVD, I'm going to be really pissed off. I'm sick and tired of the recording industry punishing me because of what "could be".
     
  2. Vince Maskeeper

    Vince Maskeeper Producer

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    John, this is the second time I've seen you suggest a global corporate conspiracy when the truth of the matter is you simply don't have a firm understanding of the formats you're discussing. I would suggest that in the future you refrain from making such statements unless you're pretty sure you understand the technology.
    Fact of the matter is a recordable DVD 2.0 is identical to a replicated DVD-5 disc. Since it is not possible to burn a dual layered DVD, this is the best you could hope for!
    -V
    PS: I also find it a little ironic that you would repeatedly (mistakenly) fault the entertainment industry for taking steps related to copyright protection. Judging by your name and signature, I assume you're the same John Berger who owns and run the Letterbox and Widescreen advocacy page.
    I have had occasion to visit your site, and when attempting to right click to copy a link to one of your informative articles to share with newbies on this forum- I'm greeted with an aggressive pop up notifying me that everything on the site is copyright and forcing me to read the site guidelines.
    I think it's a bit ironic that you would then complain (incorrectly) about methods someone else uses to protect their material.
    "Some of us are sick and tired of the webmasters punishing us because of what 'could be'". [​IMG]
     
  3. Max Leung

    Max Leung Producer

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    Vince, do you think it would ever be possible to burn dual-layered DVD-Rs in the future? Manufacturing the layers separately and then gluing them together doesn't sound very promising. [​IMG]
     
  4. Vince Maskeeper

    Vince Maskeeper Producer

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    As far as I know it wouldn't ever be possible to burn a dual layered DVD.

    I'm sure this is reassuring for Hollywood, as it makes DVD bootlegging to be nearly pointless for anyone who cares about quality (but then again, MP3 took off like a rocket)-- and this could be good news for HT nuts as it means that higher bitrate DVD 9 presentations will be more popular (studios will up the bitrate so that direct bootleg copies are too big to fit on a bootleg DVD-R).

    I am not 100% up to speed on the future technology- but from what I had read single layer DVD was all that would be possible with a burner for the forseeable future. If someone knows info to the contrary, please post as I'm interested to know.

    -V
     
  5. AndyVX

    AndyVX Supporting Actor

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    While they could just up the bitrate to prevent piracy (and to give us a better quality product), I don't see how this would deter bootleggers.
    They'll just split the movie onto two DVD's, thus keeping the quality the same, but just spread over two disc's.
    Everyone that uses VCD's and Divx CD's don't seem to mind having to swap disc's.
    Anyways, this is just me rambling... [​IMG]
     
  6. Max Leung

    Max Leung Producer

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    Well, as long as DVDs stay under the $30 range (usually $25 for most DVD releases here in Canada) I am not concerned about bootlegging. *fingers crossed*

    The only thing I can think of to allow dual-layer burning is to, of course, make a DVD-R with two layers, and use a different frequency and focus for the 2nd layer burn. Perhaps something along the lines of requiring the 1st layer to be burnt first, to allow the chemical changes necessary on the 1st layer so that it would be transparent for a later 2nd layer burn.

    I hope that made sense.
     
  7. NickSo

    NickSo Producer

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    If you guys think DVD pirating isnt gonna take off, you should take a look at my local 'night markets'. These night markets are held in big parking lots of malls etc. where retailers and people can sell stuff. You can get food, sunglasses, cellphone faceplats etc. but the most prominent kinds of stores are the DVD/VCD/CD stores. Amazingly, the cops or police dont really care about it.

    The quality is very poor, but you can notice that the majority of the crowds are around DVD/VCD stores that sell DVDs for like $10 a pop.
     
  8. John_Berger

    John_Berger Cinematographer

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    Uh, excuse me?! Did I not ask WHY DVD-Rs are only 4.7 GB? That right there kind of says that I was not pretty sure about understanding the technology, hence why I posed the question. Now I know. I could have lived in my ignorance and been very happy. Maybe next time I should.
     
  9. John_Berger

    John_Berger Cinematographer

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  10. Shayne Lebrun

    Shayne Lebrun Screenwriter

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  11. Vince Maskeeper

    Vince Maskeeper Producer

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    I'm surprised that a seemingly intelligent gentleman such as yourself still does not see the ironic double standard. The companies you fault are doing the same, responding to "what has been done".
    Record companies and movie companies have had materials repeatedly stolen from them and bootlegged. If they take any action to dissuade this type of activity- you seem to find it offensive that such measures would overlap into preventing you from doing "legal" things with the material.
    In your mind they have wronged you because they have prevented some "legal" copying of their material in order to prevent the illegal uses.
    However, your decision to use javascripting controls to make it impossible to right click on your site is absolutely identical. You feel you have had materials stolen from you- so you took action to dissuade this type of activity. In the process, you have prevented me from copying link locations to provide links to your site. You have also made it impossible for my to right click in order to open a particular item in a new window (my preferred method of browsing).
    My link copying or new window browsing would be a completely FAIR USE of your site materials- yet you have disabled my "legal" use of your material in order to prevent the illegal uses. You have even hurt my ability to browse and enjoy the site you're presenting in order to foil potental theives.
    These two situations are identical (heck, I'd say the recording industry is even more correct than you are as they are protecting their material from others who would profit directly from it- and I doubt anyone is stealing and then selling your materials).
    Once again, I don't and won't criticize you your decision to protect your work-- I would have never mentioned it had you not been so willing to fault (even completely in error) someone else for doing the same.
     
  12. John_Berger

    John_Berger Cinematographer

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    Under U.S. copyright code, there is nothing illegal with making archival backups of software that one has purchased. The law is broken when a duplication is made for purposes other than archival backups. I would be more than happy to spend time and money on blank DVDs in order to archive my LOTR DVDs when I get them so that I can put the originals safely away. I can't do that. I am referring to being able to backup my DVDs but being unable to do so because of the lower capacity of DVD-Rs, which as I already explained was under the assumption (now proven to be a false assumption) of a restricted capacity due to pressure from Hollywood.
    I have zero problems with someone using something from my site as long as credit is given, even if it's just a link saying "Courtesy of...". I give credit to the screen shots and other images that I use. But one night I did a search to look for other widescreen web sites to find no less than a dozen who simply took stuff from my site -- sometimes verbatim -- with nothing reciprocal. That is not "fair use". That is not an "arhcival backup". That is theft. That's why I got P.O.ed and implemented the restriction. Now that I've had a chance to watermark most of my images, I'm considering removing the restriction.
    If anyone is looking for some kind of apology or some cringing "please forgive me", it's not going to happen. [​IMG]
     
  13. Vince Maskeeper

    Vince Maskeeper Producer

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    And, as I said above, there is nothing wrong with me copying a link location from your site. However this did not stop you from disallowing this "fair use" in the process of preventing people from stealing from you. The music and movie studios have reacted in an identical fashion- eliminating legal abilities in the persuit of stopping illegal ones- and this has you outraged.
    I understand the laws and the processes quite well John, I was simply pointing out the two situations were nearly identical:
    You [or the studio] found that people were stealing your work and republishing it without giving credit [or payment]- so you [or the studio] chose to take action to prevent the theft. In the process you [or the studio] have taken steps which infringe on the legal use of enjoyment of the materials.
    I don't think is an issue for debate [and I noticed you really didn't bother to try]- I think the two are quite clearly the same thing.
    -V
     
  14. John_Berger

    John_Berger Cinematographer

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    ...only because we're apparently looking at it through differently-colored glasses, so I figured that there would be no use in continuing, much like the way that the Disney anti-widescreen thread was dropped.
     
  15. Steven K

    Steven K Supporting Actor

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  16. Vince Maskeeper

    Vince Maskeeper Producer

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    Quite possible.

    Although I'm unsure exactly what color glasses would allow you to see the two situations (the theoretical studios' response which outraged you, and your own response which apparently are A-OK) as anything other than identical.

    Maybe your glasses are black?

    Cheers!

    -V
     
  17. Jeff Kleist

    Jeff Kleist Executive Producer

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    David Ely Supporting Actor

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  19. Shayne Lebrun

    Shayne Lebrun Screenwriter

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  20. John_Berger

    John_Berger Cinematographer

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