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Who here actually believes in good cables? Audioquest? Monster? (1 Viewer)

DanaA

Screenwriter
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Nov 21, 2001
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Not to drag this further off topic, but I'm an old timer who loves ESS speakers too. Their factory and showroom and only a few miles from me and I keep on meaning to stop by to look at what they have set up for a demo.

Back to topic, companies such as Rhino, Blue Jeans, and Parts Express have great reputations and I can speak for Rhino's great customer service. Following David's advice, you might want to check out Rhino or Blue Jeans for your component video cables and Parts Express for the rest.
 

Jason.Soko

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May 30, 2003
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Wow I was not even aware ESS was still around. Do they actually have new models? I recently refoamed and gasketed my woofers, while not an immaculate job they are MUCH nicer sounding then with rotting surrounds. It would be great to get these babies some updated woofers, or at least a proper replacement.

BTW these are actually my fathers ESS's he bought when he was 18!! Second generation :)
 

Joe Szott

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I like Bob's system:

High End: Video cables with good connectors
Mid-level: Analog interconnects, perhaps speaker wires
Budget: Subwoofer and coaxial-digital cables

Not all needs are created equal, why treat the cables any other way?
 

Mark Rich

Second Unit
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Oct 24, 2001
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457
IMO. Based on which cables provided the most impact in my systems.Retail, custom and DIY creations

High End: None. Buy high quality mid level cables.
Mid level: Video, Digital coax, Subwoofer and AC cords
Low end: Analog IC and Speaker cables
 

Yee-Ming

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Allow this humble tin-eared non-audiophile to chime in his 2-cents...

After getting a universal player, I figured the least I could do was explore reasonable mid-level DIY-type analog interconnects, rather than the cheapo freebies that come supplied. I first tried Canare RCA crimp plugs with Belden 1694a cable and Belden 89259 cable. The difference between the freebies and the Beldens was remarkable, even to my untrained ears -- much better clarity at treble, better bass etc. Another friend who recently asked me to get the same (1694a) said the same thing once he hooked it into his stereo system.

As between 1694a and 89259, sorry, I can't hear any difference. I've also tried Belden 89207, no difference. Klotz GY107 seems to give better bass, at the price of a little clarity in the treble.

And that's the current state of my experimentation, which has currently ground to a halt because of a problem with my receiver (but that's another story :frowning: ).
 

Cliff Olson

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Nov 9, 2002
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It depends on what you mean by "believes in". CAN high-end cables improve (help keep it uncolored) the overall sound? Yes, in my experience. Is there a limit on how much money spent vs. how BIG the improvement is? Definately. It is very dependant on your system and YOUR ears. If you have a $500 receiver, you probably won't hear much of a difference. But, if you have a $10,000 system with separates, then usually, you will hear quite a difference between different ICs, Speaker Cables, and Digital Coax cables. You need to experiment yourself, because there are a lot of skeptics out there who will advise you to not waste your money. See for yourself, and spend what you are comfortable with. The cable industry is doing very well, so that should be an indicator that millions CAN hear a difference. It would sure be nice if this forum added catagories to our profiles, where you can list your system. Some, if not most of us, don't have time to create a webpage to list all our equipment on.

PS - My term of "high-end" cables (assuming $5000+ system), means the $150+ range per meter pair of ICs, $300+ per 8' speaker pair, and $150+/meter for coax. Might be middle-end to most.
 

Chu Gai

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It would be a bit disturbing to me to purchase a high-end system (whatever that is) and find that it was enormously dependent upon cables. And the success of an industry is not always predicated upon actual benefits. That said, it's not all that difficult to make a decent cable although its remarkable how the high end companies get away with poorly engineered products.
 

Chu Gai

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Well cables certainly can be a weak link. Many of the cables that come with equipment aren't the most robustly designed and people aren't always very careful with putting things on and taking them off. And of course there exist the peculiar situations where a better shielded interconnect is appropriate, or a component such as an amp is designed to not operate properly into a wide range of loads. Naim amps were notorious for having coronaries when faced with speaker wires with excessive capacitance. Some interpret that as cables making a difference. I interpret it as poor engineering on the part of the amp. Then of course there are a small but vocal amount of people who purchase products that are almost intended to interact with wires, where things like low impedance -> high impedance is not the norm. Cliff, to me the universal weak link is us. As Pogo said, "I have seen the enemy and it is us" or something like that. As remarkable as human hearing is, as in fact as all our senses are, it has limitations. The same musical passage can be played at precisely the same levels and people can and do say that 1 was different from 2. The explanations are simple when one recognizes that hearing is a 'lossy' process and that the information is processed differently depending upon the emphasis one places at a particular point in time. Anyways, that to me is the weakest link.

How would you attribute the success of the cable industry, Chu?
Depends upon how you define success I think. The poster child for success is Monster. Through aggresive advertising, partnerships, litigation, and mass production, they appear to be quite profitable. Radio Shack is also fairly successful. An analysis of virtually any industry will result in some sort of statistical bell curve being generated with regard to say # sold vs cost. Lots of Timex that keep superb time are sold to say a wind em up Rolex or Patek Phillipe (I'm partial to Rado) even though the latter are woefully lacking in accuracy.

People buy wire and cable for a variety of reasons. Some want the best spec'd thing out there. Some are searching, many vainly, for audible improvements. For some its a status symbol that illustrates their commitment towards sonic excellence. Some people just enjoy looking at their wires in much the same way as one, who'd customize a car, enjoy looking at anodizing, powder finishing, and all that. Some enjoy being able to talk directly with the people who make the stuff. Some get off on exotic materials. Some enjoy hand made products though why people think hand made is synonymous with quality is beyond me. A lot of people have run out ideas or finances to make substantial improvements to their system so off goes the search for something better or at least, perceived to be better. God, one could write a 500 page marketing paper on this. Could write one on bottled water too.

For even the commonest of products, there will always be a market that spans price points and generates its own cult following. Table salt for example. There are people who only will cook with sea salt. And within that you'll have sea salt from the Mediterranean, Arctic, Antarctic, some island or another. And you'll find claims being made everywhere. All claims are testable and subject to scrutiny.If it's softer, warmer, fluffier, sweeter, sharper, etc. the claims can all be tested and either proven right or wrong although at times, a qualification might be required. The primary way to be able to charge large amounts of money for something like wires is for the manufacturer to create the image that the wires aren't accessories and connections, but rather components ranking if not outranking things like the contribution of a room to acoustics. You do that by creating a tier of products varying in construction and appearance and of course price. You make sure you've got testimonials and you make sure you've got some very credible, even if it may be ludicrous, theories. You make sure you never tell people about the limitations of human hearing and the importance of such things as level matching and leave them to make their own decisions. Indeed, is it any wonder that Your Mileage May Vary? PT Barnum once said, "No one ever went broke underestimating the American public". It's a fact well known to many people making a plethora of items, and wires and cables is only one of the areas.
 

Cliff Olson

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I'll take a gander! Great marketing plus extreme gullibility?
First off Rob, that's a pretty arrogant statement to make. Even though you answered a question with another question. Second, I directed my question at Chu, because I knew he would answer it in an honest and "classy" way, even if I don't always agree with his philosophies.
 

Chu Gai

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You caught me on my 'classy' day. Good cables is a term that means many things to many people and I certainly don't expect it to coincide with my take on matters. Whatever information I present, I try to make sure it's accurate and has scientific underpinnings. To ignore the major roles that L, C, & R play and focus on trivial or made-up-on-the-spot factors, to me is foolish. Poorly constructed, badly engineered, and flimsy cables are not always the hallmark of what a manufacturer puts in the box. The high end is replete with it's own poorly engineered products also. I consider Alpha Goertz interconnect poorly engineered because of their high capacitance. They may work in your system, but consider yourself lucky. Mapleshade interconnects are embarassingly constructed. Cables that are so rigid as to be able to lift a component are not my idea of being suited to the task at hand. Neither are power cords that are constructed in such a way that they can shut down other components because they're radiating something. Yet all these strangley designed products have attracted some sort of following. Hopefully a trivial enough following that those companies will no longer be in business.
 

RobWil

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Mar 17, 2003
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First off Rob, that's a pretty arrogant statement to make.
Hmmmm....:confused: ...must be all the Arrogant Bastard Ale I've been consuming I hear that's quite popular up your way nowdays. :emoji_thumbsup:
BTW....sorry you didn't appreciate my sarcastic humor...it was just a peanut gallery comment (in Jesse's thread I might add) and obviously not intended to hijack the question....must be a little stuffier up there....sheesh!
Besides....I said the same thing he did, only in less words :D
 

Kevin_Kr

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May 9, 2001
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Jesse, what soundtrak do you work at? BTW I am a firm believer in good cables no matter what the brand. Your system is only as good as the weakest link.
 

ChrisWiggles

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Aug 19, 2002
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WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!!!

WAIT!

STOP THE TAPE! Back up!



You guys take the time to pour great wine into a bottle? ARE YOU NUTS? Leave it in the box, and drink it direct! Cmon, it's got that easy-pour spout, and freshness bag inside. Pssshh, I know my high-end wines, and THAT'S the way it's done.

:D
 

Ray_C

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Joined
Jan 6, 2004
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So has anyone looked inside their components to see what's connecting those RCA plugs to the rest of the circuitry? Is there a best choice for the ribbon-thin, 2-hair-wide strip of metal on a printed circuit board that a signal travels along, which runs pretty darn close to another strip of metal on the same circuit board? Shouldn't those strips be shielded? How about the volume pot? What guage wire is best for connecting the speaker terminals to the rest of the amp? What % OFC should they be? What sort of solder should be used?
 

Bob McElfresh

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Hi Ray.

Good observations.

Notice that most internal wiring is contained in a metal box. This box acts like a shield. This is why internal traces & wires can be un-shielded - the box containing the electronics takes care of it.

Wire Gauge - there is a length issue with respect to power. Short runs of speaker wires (carrying power) can be 20 or 16 ga. Longer runs (in the 1-5-10-20 ft range) need thicker wire to reduce something called "rolloff".

Wire gauge is much less of a problem for interconnects that carry line-level or un-amplified signals. This is why most of your circuit traces can be hair-thin.

What guage wire is best for connecting the speaker terminals to the rest of the amp?
A speaker web site used to recommend the following gauge based on the speaker wire run length:

1-10 ft: 16 ga
11-20 ft: 14 ga
20+ ft: 12 ga

Most of us buy a spool of good OFC 12 ga and use it for all our runs in our home theater systems. The "Sound King" wire from www.partsexpress.com has a lot of fans for being good quality but at a low price.

I dont believe there is a "% OFC" you need to worry about. I thought "OFC" simply ment that a neutral gas was injected around the molten copper to keep oxygen atoms from saturating the surface of the metal. This in theory helps reduce the oxidization of the copper under the insulation. So it's not like a percentage of oxygen was added.

I also dont think you should solder your wires to your speaker terminals (unless you are speaker building of course). Many of us use banana plugs which are very handy and do a fairly good job of keeping oxygen off of the bare copper.
 

Ray_C

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Messages
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Thanks, Bob. I was actually being a bit fecetious in that post, and what I meant by 'speaker terminals' was the actual posts on the amp, not the speaker. But you are very gracious for answering so maturely, rather than ridiculing. I use Parts Express' PVC-encased in-wall four-wire cable (14g each wire) for my speakers, joining pairs for each terminal...Bananas for the amp end, spades for the speaker end, and they do fine. I just always found it a bit strange that some folks were willing to pay hundreds of dollars for RCA interconnects with special connectors and all, but would not investigate the wiring of the actual RCA plugs....or if it even made a difference. I've completely re-capped and re-potted my '67 Fender Deluxe Reverb guitar amp myself, and although I did a lot of research as to the makes of capacitors/resistors/pots, I left most of the original 37-year-old cloth covered hookup wire intact, including the ones that connect to the speaker. If I was anywhere near as obsessive about the wire used as some are about their entertainment equipment, I probably would have jumped out the window.
 

Nathan Stohler

Second Unit
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Jan 17, 2004
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pradike said, many months ago:

Monster Cables is good stuff -- not great stuff, but good stuff. What they ARE great at is spending alot of marketing dollars for name recognition...and they have accomplished that. You see their name everywhere...of course there are Chevys everywhere too.
What's wrong with Chevrolet?
 

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