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Who can claim to be the "biggest and baddest" sub? (1 Viewer)

DanWiggins

Second Unit
Joined
Aug 15, 1999
Messages
324
Hi all,

XBL^2 is being considered by many individuals in the audio community, including several of the original designers of other drivers discussed here. It's also rolling in many products right now, some of which the licensees have chosen to keep quiet.

As compared to some of the prototypes from TC Sounds (which use a variable winding approach, discussed in our own patent), XBL^2 offers as much if not more linear stroke, much lower moving mass, much lower inductance, and overall tighter motor tolerances (greater clearance when rocking). Additionally, it's considerably less expensive to build. And from a dynamic linearity standpoint, BL and Le are much more linear, and because of the lower weight Cms tends to be much more linear as well.

Linear stroke is good, but it should be usable as well. Having 400+ grams of voice coil weight severely restricts your options in use of the driver, as does inductance in the 10+ mH range. That is the reason that even though these prototypes have high BL^2/Re numbers, they have extremely high Qes values (approaching a value of 1). Extremely high mass to achieve that level of throw. The motor is strong, but not strong enough, and the result is a very high Qes of a highly underdamped system.

There's a lot more to drivers than just BL^2/Re, or even linear Xmax. Linearity of BL, Le, and Cms are also important, as is moving mass. Having a high BL^2/Re is worthless if you achieve it via high mass, and need a stiff suspension to keep that mass centered. It's like installing a 500 HP engine in your car, but mandating that you must drive with your parking brake on, and while towing a 2500 pound boat. Better to stick with no brake or boat, and a 300 HP engine.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
 

Michael R Price

Screenwriter
Joined
Jul 22, 2001
Messages
1,591
Dan, Tom and others,

Are there any technologies that may allow higher efficiency woofers (larger enclosures) to use XBL or other very linear motors with long excursions? It seems as if most of the current high displacement woofers are designed for use in relatively small boxes and have efficiency around 84-88db. Isn't power handling going to become a big problem if we're taking advantage of 40 to 50 mm of excursion?
 

John E Janowitz

Second Unit
Joined
Oct 30, 2000
Messages
445
Michael,

There are several tradeoffs. First, if you're trying to design a system without EQ, you really need it to have lower efficiency to get low in frequency unless you want giganitc enclosures. Figure while the Wilson XS has the two Seismic woofers in it having good output to 16hz, the response at 20hz is actually about 10dB down. The F3 point of the system is up around 100hz. To get a flat response curve down to below 20hz requires a lot of EQ, or an enclosure probably 4x the size of the current Wilson XS. If you don't mind EQ, drivers like the Seismic are great. High efficiency, high excursion, low distortion.

The other thing is that to make a driver move 50mm one way requires suspension that will stay linear. This typically means a very stiff surround and spider and lower efficiency. Going with a softer spider can lead the VC to rock back and forth and scrape. A softer surround will have problems with "suckback" due to the huge pressure levels created inside the enclosures. The pressure can actually invert the surround causing all kinds of problems for the driver.

Is it possible to do more high efficiency, high excursion drivers? To some extents yes, but there are still limits. I have yet to see anything that will beat the Seismic woofer which has about 25mm of one way travel and very high efficiency of 98dB 1w/1m. Inductance is also a very low .47mh. Because the neo motor has very little stray magnetic field, the BL curve will be very linear compared to a standard woofer as well.

John

John
 

JimNug

Auditioning
Joined
Sep 13, 2003
Messages
12
I kept waiting for someone to post a pitch for the big Servodrive-Sound Physics subs, the Contrabase and the SPL-BDEAP-32. They have both got to be close to the top of the heap if we are talking about monster base. Now if your are talking about sheer size and weight, I do think that the Everest that was mentioned earlier might get the nod at 400 plus lbs per.
 

scott>sau

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jul 1, 2003
Messages
190
E/V (electro-voice) makes sub drivers that can handle well over 2400 watts. If you want deep, articulate bass try the sub SVS and Velodyne copied, the M&K. Dual 12's in a push-pull sealed enclosure. The best sub made. Skywalker Ranch even bought some.:emoji_thumbsup: :b
 

Mark Seaton

Supporting Actor
Joined
Oct 10, 1999
Messages
599
Real Name
Mark Seaton
Yeah, but Mr. Lucas has 4 ContraBasses in his personal theater driven by 2 K2 amplifiers.

The other sub not yet mentioned is the Genelec quad 12" monster. It's the size of an icebox, and is a monster down to about 19Hz.

The problem is that it is hard to quantify the "biggest/baddest" as subwoofer design is a balance of compromises. Size being the most significant.
 

ChuckRG

Agent
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
44
If there was enough access in either the ceiling or an adjoining room, I would go the IB route (and the wall/ceiling were structurally solid). Short of that I would do what I did do -- 4 SVS huge box subs. Massive amounts of air movment, low distrotion, clean, tight and low. Overall cost, including external amps is about half of a Wilson solution --- more square inches of driver moving less distance to produce the same sound pressure level means lower distortion -- particulalry at high SPL's While this does not exactly qualify as a single sub, it is a single low bass solution. (I know that all of the Wilson owners will take exception to this but I hav heard my solution and the big XS --- I win.

A question to any IB owner. How important is it that the wall or ceiling that has the IB behind it be compeltely rigid??
 

Mark Seaton

Supporting Actor
Joined
Oct 10, 1999
Messages
599
Real Name
Mark Seaton
Hey Tom,

That is one beautiful suspension isn't it? Of course watching the 18" with the same surround dance is even more intriguing!
 

John E Janowitz

Second Unit
Joined
Oct 30, 2000
Messages
445
TV that looks like a standard 12" venezuela basket. How are you able to get 2" inward travel with that? There's only about 1.25" clearance under the spider. Also, the biggest spider you can stick on the venezuela is 8.5". If there's an 8.5" spider that can move 50mm one way, I want one.

John
 

terence

Supporting Actor
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
985
Tom that pic is SWEET!

I'm just speculating here but that means the driver is capable of moving 452 cubic in of air in one cycle. assuming that the driver's cone is flat thru out, so at 20Hz that's 9000 cubic inches of air! At 20Hz peak to peak excursion that's 5 1/4 cubic ft of air per sec. Of course just speculating.
 

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