A Few Words About While we wait for A few words about...™ Raiders of the Lost Ark -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Dave H]

Those shots are a good comparison between the original 4K restoration (shown during 2011 30th anniversary screenings and on Japanese TV) and what was used for the 2012 IMAX and blu-ray releases. From what I can tell, both probably use the same negative scan and restoration by Laser Pacific, but the color grade was tweaked (orange and tealed) and a few shots digitally changed by Technicolor for the 2012 release. There is also more DNR and the sound is remixed.

I would be curious. I was going to say they look like they are from two different scans based on the framing differences, detail, and other aspects. However, if a 4K scan was done in 2011, it's hard to imagine yet another scan was done a year later. Maybe just two different masters from the same 4K scan in that case.

I cannot tell from RAH's first post if this was a brand new scan or one already done.

EDIT: I am thinking the JP broadcast and the DVD look too similar not to be from the same source.

I am also thinking they had to do a new scan for IMAX which is obviously really revealing.

 

[Dave H]

That JP broadcast is just the old 2002 master right?

I'm starting to think so.

It looks too similar to the DVD.

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[Dave MJ]

That JP broadcast is just the old 2002 master right?

No, it's a much newer restoration. The master used for the DVD did have an HD version which was shown on US television up until 2012. That version looks identical to the DVD with a bit more detail and includes a CGI version of the jeep going over the cliff.

A poor quality version can be seen here:



That shot was changed back to the original version in the HD restoration in the comparison screenshots, which was only shown on Japanese TV and briefly streamed on Hulu. There is a lot of confusion about the 2 versions because they do look similar and the second version is fairly unknown outside of Japan.

 

[Dave MJ]

I'm starting to think so.

It looks too similar to the DVD.

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It's not the same. Like I mentioned in another post, the DVD transfer did have an HD version which was shown on US television and had the CGI version of the jeep going over the cliff. There are many differences between the 2 versions.

As to a new scan being needed for IMAX, it doesn't seem likely they would do a complete 4K restoration in 2011, then do another one in 2012. Framing doesn't happen at the raw scan stage, it happens much later during color grading and mastering. The 2011 version was streamed in 16x9 framing on Hulu for a short time before Raiders came to Netflix (using the blu-ray master).

 

[Dave MJ]

Here's a quick comparison of DVD (2003), Japanese TV (2011 restoration) and blu-ray (2012). The DVD has good exposure but the 2011 Japanese is brightened and overexposed and the blu-ray is even brighter. The highlights are dulled to compensate plus it has the orange/teal grading applied. Same with the shot of Toht. It seems to me that the blu-ray is a re-graded version of the 2011 version.

There are lots of other examples, but I can assure you the DVD is a different and older transfer made from an IP. The other 2 are restored from the negative and probably the same scan.

 

[Dave MJ]

And one more from the same sequence (because it was so poorly handled on the blu-ray). First is a 1981 Kodak print, then the DVD, the 2011 Japanese HDTV and 2012 blu-ray. The blu is very similar to the Japanese HD, but has been brightened to overexposure.

 

[OliverK]

That JP broadcast is just the old 2002 master right?

Pretty sure it isn't, too much detail for that.

Looks as if once Paramount gets going just about everything gets worse, not better:

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[OliverK]

Emphasis mine. Therein lies the rub.

Exactly. There should be some kind of petition to make the textures, detail and colors of the DCP's of To Catch A Thief, Grease, Raiders and others available on Blu-ray and 4k UHD

 

[Lord Dalek]

Pretty sure it isn't, too much detail for that.

There would have been more detail on the actual digital masters done for those dvds than what was visible at the time. Also USA ran those same masters in true HD for a while like 10 years ago.

 

[Dave H]

It's not the same. Like I mentioned in another post, the DVD transfer did have an HD version which was shown on US television and had the CGI version of the jeep going over the cliff. There are many differences between the 2 versions.

As to a new scan being needed for IMAX, it doesn't seem likely they would do a complete 4K restoration in 2011, then do another one in 2012. Framing doesn't happen at the raw scan stage, it happens much later during color grading and mastering. The 2011 version was streamed in 16x9 framing on Hulu for a short time before Raiders came to Netflix (using the blu-ray master).

That seems fair.

There are some sequences where the 2012 BD has notably more detail than the 2011 JP. It doesn't seem like DNR either although I suppose better encoding perhaps. Still, the 2012 BD looks so much different than the 2011 where it's more than just a new master. Something about the texture of the image, to me, makes it look like a new scan. But I don't know. Makes no sense to do a new scan in 2011 and then in 2012. lol The only exception might be if Spielberg wasn't happy with it for some reason.

 

[OliverK]

Paramount's hatred of film grain is strong:

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There is very little film grain throughout the whole movie in the Blu-ray version and Raiders of the Lost Ark used to be quite grainy.

 

[OliverK]

There would have been more detail on the actual digital masters done for those dvds than what was visible at the time. Also USA ran those same masters in true HD for a while like 10 years ago.

You are certainly correct regarding the detail but a comparison with the European DVD while not ideal does not exactly make a case for both coming from the same master and I doubt they had two different masters for the European and US DVD releases:

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[Dave H]

Paramount's hatred of film grain is strong:

There is very little film grain throughout the whole movie in the Blu-ray version and Raiders of the Lost Ark used to be quite grainy.

The Paramount shows more grain in some sequences.

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[Lord Dalek]

The Paramount shows more grain in some sequences.

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I'm pretty sure that's actually compression noise. 1980 film emulsions weren't that bad AFAIK,

 

[Dave MJ]

This comparison shot really demonstrates how the orange filter added to the blu really changes the color of everything and dulls the details in the scene.

https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a=0&d1=1520&d2=8014&s1=14347&s2=76368&i=6&l=0

It's applied inconsistently throughout the blu-ray.

 

[Dave MJ]

Then there's this shot, where someone got really heavy handed with the orange on the blu-ray. How did that ever get approved?

 

[Worth]

I saw a 2K DCP viewing a few years ago. Looked almost identical to the BD.

There may be different DCPs out there. The 4K (non-IMAX) version I've seen on a few occasions doesn't have the blown-out, orange look of the disc.

 

[Dave MJ]

One more then I'll stop I promise lol. The first trailer for the blu-ray release showed samples of the restoration and the clips they used were NOT from the blu-ray, they are from the 2011 restoration (shown for the 30th anniversary and on Japanese TV). So that seems to indicate they originally planned to use that 2011 version, but the decision to alter the color to the more modern orange/teal was made late in the game, possibly for the IMAX release.

2011 restoration

Trailer for blu-ray

Blu-ray

 

[Dave MJ]

There may be different DCPs out there. The 4K (non-IMAX) version I've seen on a few occasions doesn't have the blown-out, orange look of the disc.

You probably saw the DCP for the 2011 version. It was definitely shown during fall of 2011 and maybe is still in circulation.

 

[Dave H]

So let me ask. Is there a "4K77" if you will of Raiders out there?