Which SVS for max tactile feedback at any given volume?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Dan Lindley, Jul 11, 2002.

  1. Dan Lindley

    Dan Lindley Second Unit

    Sep 19, 2000
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    I sent these questions to Tom V, but wanted everyone's feedback as well. They focus on the issue of how to get the most tactile sensation at any given volume (let's say short of reference by a good margin, perhaps 75-80-85DB or so). By tactile sensation, I mean that chest thumping, window shaking, picture dropping, skin crawling, pant leg moving experience reported by so many of you.
    1. Does a 16-46 give more tactile thump than a 20-39 (within a given SVS series) at any given volume as the first two thread quotes below suggest?
    2. Does the PC+ give more thump than a PCI at any given volume, as the third quote perhaps suggests?
    2a. Is displacement the key to moving air and feeling thudded at any given volume? (related to TV's thread quote at the bottom):
    3. If the answers to both 1 and 2 are yes, how would a 25-31PC+ compare to a 16-46 PCI?
    (you can ignore the quotes if you wish, but I include them since folks with sleeping kids/spouses, apartment dwellers, and any others who want max shake at more modest DBs might be interested in related threads/assertions/facts).
    QUOTE 1 "If you are on a tight budget go with the 20-39 (any flavor) but if you can afford a few more dollars definitely spring for the 16-46. The added low bass thump is what subs are all about. Most people don't listen at that high of volume to notice the SPL difference BUT you will notice the Hz differences the minute you put a movie in."
    QUOTE 2 "I have a 16-46 and I think the extension is worth it. I play my sub at LOW volumes (apartment) and the effect is still awesome. I often rest my feet on the coffee table in front of me and The Haunting had that sucker vibrating even when the bass wasn't very audible. That sort of tactile response is what the 16-46 (and other bottom feeders) are all about."
    FROM: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...313#post785313
    QUOTE 3 "I think you are a little off there Bob. In the pre plus series days it was said that it would take a pair of the CS series subs to equal a single Ultra. With the ISD this isn't true anymore. Bass is displacement and the rough numbers for the SVS drivers (best guesses of the DIY guys with some brow beating of Tom) has the ISD at 1.5L (equivalent to a Shiva or Dayton DVC12"), the Plus series driver at 2L and the Ultra/SS driver at 2.5L (equivalent to a Tempest). The original SVS driver was around 1.2 or 1.3L. So take from that what you will."
    QUOTE 4 (From Tom V): "Driver Vd isn't the end all(at all). You can have 2 drivers nearly identical in *Vd* but with huge performance differences based on stuff like thermal compression,Fs and BL.
    Down low(30hz, we're looking at 2-3dB higher for the CS+.
    The current CS driver measures about 2-3dB better than the old CS/PC driver in clean output capabilities(in my ground plane tests).The lower the freq,the more advantage for the new ISD. The OLD driver hit 109.5dB(25-63hz)/25hz extension for Tom Nousaine in one of our first enclosures off the assembly line."
    Many thanks, Dan
  2. John F. Palacio

    John F. Palacio Supporting Actor

    Jan 6, 2002
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    "By tactile sensation, I mean that chest thumping, window shaking, picture dropping, skin crawling, pant leg moving experience reported by so many of you."

    Chest thumping to me is the 70-100 Hz range. Window shaking depends on the resonance of the window/wall combination probably above 30 Hz. Picture dropping; Never experienced it. Skin crawling is an emotional response, hard to transalate into acoustics. Pant leg moving; 40-60 Hz range.

    None of these will appear to be much different on the different SVS models as what sets them apart is response below the 25 Hz range.

    I went from a single 25-31 CS to dual 16-46 CS+'s. The very deep bottom and the added SPL capabilities were the difference.

    However positioning of the subs, no matter what model, made a big difference in output, response and standing waves.
  3. jeff lam

    jeff lam Screenwriter

    Jun 4, 2001
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    San Jose, CA
    Real Name:
    Jeff Lam
    If you want to feel it like everyone describes and keep it well below reference, you'll be looking for a long time because it only exists in a Tactile Trasducer like a buttkicker.

    To my understanding the tactile sensation that subs give of are directly related to SPL(volume), the more SPL's, the more things shake. My guess is all SVS subs at a given volume will shake exactly the same because it is the volume that is doing the shaking. Heck, even a 6" sony sub can shake as much as an SVS at a given volume provided the volume isn't limited by the sub's capabilities.

    When you get into lower frequencies below the tuning point of a given sub, of course the larger, lower tuned subs will keep going as the smaller, higher tuned subs give way.

    For instance, you want to play a 50Hz tone at a measured 80dB. You have a 6" sony sub, a 20-39 svs, and a DIY 18" Blueprint tuned to 17Hz. Adjusting all of them so they play the 50Hz tone at exactly the same level of 80dB, my guess is each one will shake exactly the same. Now I have not tested this but from what I gather, the tactile sensation is a direct result from sonic waves from a sub and since they are all playing the same level and frequency, they will all give off the same tactile sensation.

    I suggest maybe an array or bass shakers or a single buttkicker or buttkicker2 to get things shaking real good at low volume levels.
  4. Bill Polley

    Bill Polley Second Unit

    Apr 18, 2002
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    I respectfully disagree. I have my speakers adjusted to a certain level. I had a 12" powered sub in an 18"x18"x20" slot loaded tuned port enclosure. It played fairly flat and clean down to 40hz, then response began to drop. I could play my system at a fairly loud level with very good musicallity and noticeable bass content. Subwoofer and speakers mated very well and calibrated as flat as I could manage (I don't run "hot" with the sub like some others enjoy doing). After all the reviews, I bought a 16-46 PCi. I changed out subs and re-calibrated so the sub is as close to the same output as the mains. (just as the old sub was) What a difference! There was a new found bass floor. There was a definite visceral "feeling" to kick drums and movies. My old sub didn't do this, and it was pretty good down to about 35hz. The "feeling" must be from frequencies lower than my old sub could produce. And to check, all I had to do is play test tones. I can feel a 20hz tone more than I can hear it. This sub is a monster!
  5. Michael Lomker

    Michael Lomker Stunt Coordinator

    May 17, 2002
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    You need quite a subwoofer to come close the impact that a decent car stereo is going to provide you. In home audio the size/placement/acoustics within the room are what will do you in.

    If you want the best sound then you need to carefully consider the placement of every object in your listening room. I can't wait to have a dedicated HT/music room so that I can optimize the acoustics.

    I have a 16-46PCI and it has vibrated my coffee table from 4 feet away on a couple ocassions. If you are going to listen at less than 100% of the subs output then you should definitely go for a 16-46 that has the lower octaves. It is the lower frequencies, that you can't hear, that vibrate your furniture.

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