Which sub setup would be better?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Justin Ward, Sep 17, 2002.

  1. Justin Ward

    Justin Ward Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was looking at the Sony SA-WM40 subwoofer and a DIY model. I can buy the unpowered version of a 10 inch sub woofer at Sound Clearing House for $50(plus $20 shipping to Nova Scotia) american dollars. The Sony goes for $300 Canadian with free shipping. Could anyone tell me which would be better? If I went with the DIY I was considering buying two kits. Also, is MDF expensive or hard to find?
     
  2. Andrew Pratt

    Andrew Pratt Producer

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 1998
    Messages:
    3,806
    Likes Received:
    0
    Justin MDF runs about $28 cdn for a 3/4" 4' * 8' sheet at Home Depot here in Winnipeg so I'm sure its similar priced out your way. If you can what I'd do is buy a Shiva, Tempest or one of the 12" or 15" DVC drivers from Parts Express and build a sub based on one of these drivers. That will pretty much eat up your $300 budget though...so for amplification check out pawn shops etc and see if you can find an old stereo receiver or something to power it with. These sub drivers are pretty efficent so even with low wattage you'll get respectable performance...certianly better then what you'd get from the Sony etc. Then later when you have more funds available upgrade the amp and you'll have a very nice sub. If this is your first DIY project a sub is a great start since its pretty hard to screw it up...esp if you go sealed.
     
  3. Justin Ward

    Justin Ward Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    0
    Would I be better off with a large sub 12 or 15 inch, or dual 10 inchers?
     
  4. Stephen Hopkins

    Stephen Hopkins HW Reviewer
    HW Reviewer

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,598
    Likes Received:
    0
    You may want to look at the Swan 305 12" driver from www.madisound.com. It's a great budget driver with great frequency responce, (especially if you can get your inner volume up to arounf 5 or 6 ft^3).
     
  5. Dan Hine

    Dan Hine Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2000
    Messages:
    1,312
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, in general, it depends on what 10" and what 12" and 15" drivers you're talking about. But I'm sure in this thread you are talking about the Shiva vs the 10" from SCH. In terms of pure displacement, the Shiva will walk all over the 10" from SCH. You're talking about 760cm^3 of displacement from the Shiva vs. 102.6cm^3 from the 10" SCH driver. Someone check my math though, as that seems like way too much difference considering the prices of both. :b
    In case you're interested Justin, the formula for finding Vd (peak volume displacement for a driver) is:
    Vd = Sd * Xmax
    Sd is the piston area of the diaphragm and Xmax is the maximum distance the diaphragm should travel. That's not very in depth but it's the gist. You may also want to look into downloading WinISD or if you have Excel you could use UniBox. The best part is that they are free!
    Anyhow, given only the option between the 10" sub from SCH or the Sony, I would go the Sony since there are many people that like it and you won't spend a lot of time building a box for a cheaper sub. You could also get it right away. But if the choice were between any commercial sub in the $300 range then a Shiva like Andrew suggested would be a great way to go.
     
  6. Andrew Pratt

    Andrew Pratt Producer

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 1998
    Messages:
    3,806
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dual 10's might actually play louder in the mid bass area but a single 12 will go much lower...and in the case of the Shiva it will also play loud to boot. There are alternative drivers you could use but the Shiva or PE's 12" DVC are hard to beat for the buck.
     
  7. Justin Ward

    Justin Ward Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sounds good, where could I find plans for a good sub box to match up with a PE driver?
     
  8. Justin Ward

    Justin Ward Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am pretty good with wood tools and my dad is very good with woodworking. Building a box would be fun.
     
  9. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Go for it Justin. How big of a box can you manage?
     
  10. Justin Ward

    Justin Ward Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would prefer to have a medium sized box. I will have to lug this to college so it should be reasonable.
     
  11. Justin Ward

    Justin Ward Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    0
    I should also include that this will mostly be used with an entry-level setup. It consists of:
    Pioneer VSX-D510
    Paradigm Titans
    Kenwood CRS 159 Center and Surround speakers(will be upgraded to Paradigms in the future).
    I want to make a sub with plenty of muscle for a small/medium room.
    I also noticed that at the sound clearing house, they have a 15 inch sub driver on sale for very cheap. Is it of adequate quality? Sound Clearing House 15" driver
     
  12. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2000
    Messages:
    3,716
    Likes Received:
    0
    Justin,

    None of the SCH drivers are what I'd consider even adequate for a subwoofer. This driver has a HUGE Vas which means your box will also be huge. Under suggested box designs the flattest response is gained by going with a 13ft^3 enclosure. That'll require at least 2 people to carry that big box.

    Brian
     
  13. Andrew Pratt

    Andrew Pratt Producer

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 1998
    Messages:
    3,806
    Likes Received:
    0
    Brian's right that driver would require a huge box. I started out using cheap drivers as well and they all were junk compared to the Shiva type models so I highly recomend you spend a little more to get a quality driver.
    I'd buy one of the following
    Parts Express 12" DVC
    Parts Express 15" DVC
    12" Titanic
    NHT 1259
    Swan 305
    Adire Tempest
    Adire Shiva
    If you goto http://www.adireaudio.com/htt_entry.htm there's a coupon code to get %5 percent off Adire products...or email Bob Reimer ([email protected]) who's the canadian distributor of Adire products and he should match the %5 percent off price...and you'll avoid paying duty etc.
    Off all of these the Tempest is still my favorite to work with but the shiva's a fantastic driver as well. Since you want a smaller box consider building a sealed unit since getting porting doe properly in a small box is difficult and since you're room will likely be small (Dorm?) you'll have no problems getting it to play really loud[​IMG]
     
  14. Justin Ward

    Justin Ward Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    0
    I noticed most of the drivers recommended were 12", is this a good size for music as well as HT? And are all these woofers ok to be crossed over at 100hz?
     
  15. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Justin, the larger drivers will generally offer higher efficiency and more displacement, but require a larger box. For example, a Tempest requires around 200 liters to be worthwhile, which means a box size of 26x24x24" or so. And in terms of performance, bigger is better. Did you have any particular dimensions in mind?
     
  16. Justin Ward

    Justin Ward Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would perfer a small/medium sized sub. I want to keep my budget under $350 canadian. I would have no problems building the enclosure myself if I had plans to follow. Would a ported design or poly-fill help a smaller enclosure?
     
  17. Andrew Pratt

    Andrew Pratt Producer

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 1998
    Messages:
    3,806
    Likes Received:
    0
    Justin the reason I posted mostly 12" were due to cost and box size limitations you spoke of. Usually the larger drivers will offer greater displacement which means they'll player louder more easily then a 12" would...but the trade off is that most 15"s like larger box's then 12"s do...at least the one's we're talking about here. Now the differences between sealed and ported are that ported box's tend to play lower then sealed box's and ported tend to be larger but there's exceptions to both rules. What changes with box size is generally low low it will play and how efficent it will be...there's a rule that states for you can only have any two of the following, extension, small box size or power requirements in a single box so small box's can me made to play loud but they'll require tons of power to do it (sunfire true sub for example) Also the smaller the box the harder it is to get in a port that will tune the box low enough for HT so if you have to build it small I'd go for a sealed unit. You could add some passive radiators instead of ports but since the budget is limited you're better of sticking with a sealed sub...or a small ported model. Between the two I'd suggest a single tempest in the largest box you can realisticlly build.
     
  18. Michael Hartwig

    Michael Hartwig Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2002
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    I built a 15" Tempest in an octagon shaped box. It's about 135L sealed. I use to have the Sony SA-WM40 (tweaked). Let me tell you there is no comparison!!! The Tempest blows the doors of the Sony in music and HT. I wanted the sealed style for better transient in music. It did not disappoint!! For HT it is great. It survived the battle, mines of Moria, in LOTR. My sub is not overly big. I used 3/4" Baltic Birch (to keep weight down) and it is very stable. I can actually carry the sub by myself. I would recommend the Tempest in a sealed configuration for the best in both worlds. You can view my sub at the following:
    http://www.picturetrail.com/mch1/1159742
     
  19. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2001
    Messages:
    1,591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Justin, the way I would do it is: Pick the absolute maximum acceptable dimensions you can stand and design from there. Box size almost directly translates to efficiency at lower frequencies. This is why a 250W plate amp can create earth shattering infrasonic output with a Tempest in a huge 12 ft^3 box. The larger boxes generally have better transient response too, whether vented or sealed. I know it's a tough decision, but my philosophy would be: Once you get it into your room it will be worth it.
     
  20. warrick

    warrick Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mr Hartwig,
    I had a look at your photos
    Very impressive, I do like your entertainment centre and the way you have incorporated your speaker stands to the same design.
    Well done.
    I also noticed the DVD/CD stand, did you build that or buy it ?
    I was thinking of something similar for myself and any help would be greatly appreciated.

    I also was looking for your e-mail to contact you and ask about this but you seem to be uncontactable.

    Regards

    Warrick
     

Share This Page