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Which Show has Jumped the Shark? (1 Viewer)

Tom Rags

Supporting Actor
Joined
Apr 4, 2001
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577
Seriously, but is it just me? The talk of jumping the shark actually depresses me. I don't like it. The thought of a show jumping the shark, especially if it is one that I like, actually unsettles me. Perhaps I am wierd or need to get out more :)
 

MarkHastings

Senior HTF Member
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Jan 27, 2003
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If I think that Happy Days "Jumped the shark" when they replaced Al, do I still refer to it as "Jumping the shark"? or do I say "Replacing the Al"?

:D

What other shows have "Replaced the Al"?
 

Sven Lorenz

Supporting Actor
Joined
Sep 30, 2002
Messages
529
Another vote for Buffy and Spike having sex as the moment that show died.
I don't think any other show has ever had such a clearly defined "jump the shark" moment.
 

MarkHastings

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I don't think any other show has ever had such a clearly defined "jump the shark" moment.
Married with Children, when Peggy Bundy got pregnant and then they added the obnoxious kid...

And speaking of obnoxious kids, The Brady Bunch when Oliver was added. :D
 

Martin Rendall

Screenwriter
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Dec 5, 2000
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1,043
Dost thou Jesteth? Angel is the Citizen Kane of all that is current TV.
To each their own. I still watch, and still enjoy. Let's face it, Angel could still have a good run after "jumping the shark", simply because there's a very long distance to fall, given how good it's been.

But consider: evil Cordelia? The return of Angelus was a letdown. How could they hope to top BtVS S2? Faith? Letdown. Rock guy. One dimensional. Buried at sea? Humour that ensues after characters forget stuff? Singing demon? Father and son angst? Done to death. Even Angel facing Angelus... lame. Although the saving of the dog was priceless. Tough guy Wes? Unbelievable.

I haven't been following the official threads out of fear of being spoiled yet again, so I have no idea whether Angel is getting another season or not. Personally, I hope not, although I'll miss it dearly. But given it's gradial downward spiral, I'd rather remember it when it was great than watch it when it's just OK. Anybody else think that Joss is past his prime?

Martin.
 

Jason Seaver

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Anybody else think that Joss is past his prime?
Nah. Firefly was pretty excellent, though it was pretty much doomed to only appeal to a small audience from the start. Angel had a somewhat weak start to the season, but I think that was more due to not having a stable show-runner - co-creator David Greenwalt left, then David Simkins was hired by Fox but never settled in, the logical guy to take over (Tim Minear) was working on Firefly, and Jeffery Bell didn't really settle into the job until a few episodes in - but the show really kicked into high gear when the guys from Firefly (Minear, Ben Edlund) started working there.

Which leaves Buffy, where the opposite seems to have happened - a strong start only to completely crash and burn midway through, roughly when Firefly ended. I've suggested in the show's thread that Whedon may just be tapped out where Buffy is concerned, and no longer enthused about weekly TV after losing Firefly. You'd have to ask him, though.
 

Jason Seaver

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As an aside - I wonder if there's just an inevitable bell curve to a show's quality. I just happened to notice the other day that for many genre shows - Buffy, TNG, DS9, Angel, The X-Files, Farscape, Babylon 5, and arguably even Voyager - the fourth season (plus or minus one) is my favorite ("favorite" being a relative term where Voyager is concerned), and there's a somewhat rapid falloff afterward.

If I had to guess why, I'd say it was because that's when these shows had been able to fine-tune themselves by figuring out what wasn't working in the first year and when the characters and setting had gained enough detail and history to seem fully fleshed-out, but before continuity became a requirement rather than a bonus and the audience might start to wonder why all this stuff happened to that one person.

I'm not saying four years is universal - I have a sneaking suspicion that Firefly had the potential to collapse under its own weight in half that time, and other shows have found ways to avoid such a collapse (Law & Order lasts longer because it's so self-contained, and shows like ER and most daytime soaps get regular continuity enemas by skillfully rotating new characters in and old ones out). But I'm beginning to wonder if "shark-jumping" isn't so much the result of bad stunts as it is just whatever happened on the show around the time when the show's history becomes more of a burden than an asset.
 

Sven Lorenz

Supporting Actor
Joined
Sep 30, 2002
Messages
529
Anybody else think that Joss is past his prime?
I don't even think Joss is to blame.
Marti Noxon (the anti-christ of the Buffyverse) ran the show so far into the ground in season six that there was just no way to come back.
I really, really liked Firefly and it had the spark or the magic (or whatever you want to call it) that the first three seasons of Buffy had.
So Whedon still can write.
And Angel has some very competent writers - so it survived when Whedon was busy with Firefly.
The problem was that Noxon chose to use Buffy to work out some issues she had instead of going into therapy.
There are many interviews by her and other writers talking about how Noxon used some of her personal experiences with men for the main arc in season six.
That's the problem with season six - it was run a disturbed forty-something who hijacked the show to work out her problems.
And Joss just didn't manage to get the show back on track and the actors were so disgusted by the direction the show had taken that they lost all fun working on the show - again check the interviews they gave and read between the lines or just look at them laboring through all those bad scripts.
So basically the show didn't "jump" the shark - it was thrown to the sharks by Marti Noxon.
 

Sven Lorenz

Supporting Actor
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Messages
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I just happened to notice the other day that for many genre shows - Buffy, TNG, DS9, Angel, The X-Files, Farscape, Babylon 5, and arguably even Voyager - the fourth season (plus or minus one) is my favorite
Couldn't agree less.
My favorite Buffy season was season three, TNG season five, Angel season two, X-Files season one, Farscape season three, Babylon 5 season three and DS9 just kept getting better and better - so season seven would be my favorite.
I think that many shows "collapse under their own weight" as you called it when the arc-epsiodes start to dominate the show. In the first three seasons Buffy managed to have a good ratio between stand-alone episodes and arc episodes - with every season after that the stand-alone episodes became fewer and less important. The same goes for X-Files, Farscape, Babylon 5 and others.
Shows like DS9 or Xena managed to keep a good ratio between arc and stand-alone episodes until the end.
 

Jason Seaver

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I think that many shows "collapse under their own weight" as you called it when the arc-epsiodes start to dominate the show.
Basically what I was trying to say; it just worked out fairly evenly for me and made it easier to see a pattern.

I don't think it's just the balance between "arc episodes" and "stand-alone episodes", though. I think when a show is really clicking, the great episodes aren't really one or the other. Buffy's best episode, for my money, is "Hush", which was a great stand-alone show but also advanced the season's macrostory.

The question is, when a show starts really going in for episode-to-episode continuity, can a collapse be avoided? DS9's a good example of a show that remained pretty accessible for its entire run despite the long-form storytelling (though I admit, I had grown pretty weary of the Dominion War by the end - I would have liked to see it end earlier and explore the aftermath), but it seems to be the exception, rather than the norm.
 

Joseph Howard

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Sep 10, 1997
Messages
227
Not a show really...but..

The SciFi Channel jumped the shark when it cancelled
"farscape" and put the show "the dream team" on.

Ugh!

Dr. Joe
 

Brian Kaz

Second Unit
Joined
Aug 31, 2000
Messages
313
First off, I'd just like to say I completely agree with the poster above me.

Anyway, I've pinpointed the beginning of the end for the Simpsons as being the first episode of season 9 when Homer goes to retrieve his car in New York. The beginning was funny, after that...

From then on the show got REALLY inconsistent with forced jokes. Now, it's just flat out bad.
 

Matt Pasant

Second Unit
Joined
Jan 16, 2001
Messages
493
I thought 24 lost it before the mountain lion. For me it was last season when they pulled the mother all of soap opera gimmicks... amnesia
 

Roberto Carlo

Second Unit
Joined
Apr 14, 2002
Messages
445
Basically what I was trying to say; it just worked out fairly evenly for me and made it easier to see a pattern.
I've noticed the same pattern in genre shows. It seems that the original story arc/conceit/idea is, on average good for a maximum of between 70 and 90 episodes. That is, if the story is substantial enough.

"Buffy" is unusual in that it, IMO, was brilliant, collapsed, got up, became brilliant again and then collapsed again. The first natural arc was seasons 1-3. Season four was, at best, treading water (I'm being kind here), and then season five was great. Unfortunately, instead of ending with the shot of the headstone reading "She Saved the World. A Lot," the show came back and people like me left. Once a girl has died twice while saving us from the jaws of Hell, bringing her back to work in a burger joint and screw a vampire she hates -- with good reason -- is more than a bit cruel.

Speaking of girls screwing vampires, I used to love "Angel," so much so that I had the balls to tell an audience of religious conservatives that if they only watched one show, it should be that one. Sadly, once Conner did the nasty with Cordelia, it was adios muchachos. Actually, the show felt like it was floundering before that but loyalty to Angel kept me watching until . . .

"The Agency" lacks a sufficient concept to sustain 70 to 90 episodes. That's ironic because you think that if any thing would be a fertile source of ideas it's the CIA! Actually not, since most intelligence work is fairly prosaic, not the stuff of exciting TV.
 

Michael Hughes

Second Unit
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
369
Rarely does a quality show last more than 5 years period, there are some exceptions when a new cast of blood or a new focus can renergize. But usually what happens is that after year 5 its all about the benjamins for the stars as america has caught up with the show and then the creators eek out 2-4 more seasons of mediocrity to cash in, because usually most stars involved with that show will struggle to find another succesful TV vehicle for there careers (i.e. Seinfeld). How many tv stars can land on there feet and star in another hit show, very few.

That being said, Law and Order, a stand alone show if there ever was one, goes against this pattern, and occasionally a great comedy like Frasier or Mash can stil resonate until the characters age beyond recognition and we all move on. That is why the Simpsons has still hung around, the characters don't age.

How many shows can you think of that are as good or better 5 years after they debuted? Virtually none.
 

Joel C

Screenwriter
Joined
Oct 23, 1999
Messages
1,633
If you stopped watching Angel after ConCord, you missed out. The rest of the season explains why it happened, and even those who were grossed out seemed to accept it.
 

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