Which receiver for $3000? (1 Viewer)

[Charlie C]

"Does 0.8dB equal a substantial increase in "headroom" ? "

no, it equals a substantial increase in clarity.

 

[Drew_W]

I'll bet you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two.

Or well, please explain how 25W makes a substantial difference in clarity. That seems to me to be more of a characteristic of the amp itself (it's sonic signature if you will), not a function of it having 25wpc more than another model.

 

[Charlie C]

'No. When impedence drops, it requires more CURRENT from the amp to SUSTAIN the wattage. '

no , it requires more current from the transformer, which translates after all the other meat in the amp to be wattage

 

[Drew_W]

 

[Charlie C]

"Or well, please explain how 25W makes a substantial difference in clarity"

for one, most people do not even use 25 watts at home while listening to music. most people enjoy levels which requires about 5 watts per channel. you and I of course want to 'be there' and 'see' the music. ok so the difference between 5 and 30 watts is very very different that the difference from 125 to 150 watts

but you said it yourself "Sonics aside, the measure of a good amp is its headroom...it's powersupply, current capability, and ability to deal with loud peaks without compression or distortion." I know and you know that if you changed an amps current capability, the wattage would change.

 

[Charlie C]

"This helps to explain why a very high quality 50 watt per channel amplifier may sound less strained than another unit rated at 200 watts per channel. "

yeah thats rated wattage, not true wattage.
on ebay, I could find an amp that claims 1000 watts but is really less than 100 because of how the manufacturer rates it.

 

[Charlie C]

so to get back on track of this thread

JorgeG:
Since you are 85% music and own ML speakers, I assume you like to really crank your system, as I said above, so you can 'be there' and 'see' the music.
martin logan ascents can handle up to 200 watts so I would look at SS power amps at least in the 150 watt range. I havent read up on how digital amps and electrostatics mesh, but you might Google that. all the brands listed above , bryston, B&K, Rotel, etc are regarded are quality manufacturers. Some more than others, and you can do a search here at HTF for opinions on which is better and/or which is better for your speakers. $3000 will get you there, no problem. start looking at options and frills on the preamp stage to find a setup that fits your needs.

 

[ChrisHeflen]

Thanks Charlie.

Jorge, I think most people (including myself) are recommending that you go with seperates. Get a good combo and then eventually you can always add a better two channel amp down the road or something. Then if your pre-pro goes outta style/date you can get another one and not be out your amplification.
Where did you buy your spkrs? I'm sure they could recommend you something. Maybe you can even get a deal because your a repeat customer.
You have very good spks and you should take the time to look into seperates for YOURSELF. Try them out in YOUR ROOM. Everybody is gonna rattle off ideas and that's fine, but YOU are still gonna have to decide....He said Rotel, and then that other guy said B&K. So then what are you gonna do? Who are you gonna listen too? YOU have to decide. In this price range seperates, especially amps, are not gonna vary much. They are all gonna be fine. Rotel, Adcom, Outlaw (amps), Anthem, ATI, B&K, Parasound.
Shop around. $3g's is a lot of money (at least for me) YOU owe it to YOURSELF to shop around.

 

[JorgeG]

Sorry FeisalK, I didn't realize that was your sig(My bad) I've enjoyed the discussion between CharlieC and Drew_W. I just was offered an opportunity to pick up a brand new B&K AVR 507 (185Wx7@4ohm)which I understand now is a non current limiting amp for $2000 versus getting a Yamaha 1400 with the Rotel 1075 (200Wx5 @4ohm DIN) for $1800. I'm not sure what "DIN" means. By the way, primary purpose of set up is HT (95%), I really don't do much 2 channel listening. Again, thank you all for your insightful comments.

JorgeG

 

[Charlie C]

wow, ML's for HT! dang! [drool, drool] well which sub do you have? or do you, and do you have a 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 setup?

what Im trying to get at is you can use the extra amps to power a passive sub if needed.

I own a 10 year old 5 channel b&k amp and use it now for music only. I run 2 mains of 2 channels and then a dual sub of 2 more channels. one channel is left out. when I had an HT setup, I used all 5 channels for mains/surrounds and a seperate 2 channel amp to run my subs.
but it seems that at your budget, you can 'have a little extra' and upgrade later

 

[Drew_W]

Of course it isn't, and that sentence is meant to dispell the wattage mentality. We won't go into wattage rating. Not really an issue when you get into the high end.

 

[Charlie C]

I thought wattage wasnt an issue, "We were through this a few posts ago"


its all good drew, I think JorgeG gets the idea that he needs to buy quality stuff to power his ML's.

If you want to continue our conversation, lets do it via PM or email and not tie up his thread.

 

[Drew_W]

DIN = German Industrial Standard...European standard for measuring wattage.

And the Rotel 1075 isn't current limiting either to the best of my knowledge...until its power supply can't keep up

(which is the same case as the B&K...and any other power amp).

And you should be able to do better than $1800 for the Rotel/Yamaha combo. And you could probably do RB-1080 for the mains, RMB-1075 for everything else, and get an RSP-1066 for under $3000 used if you wanted to go the Rotel separates route. Actually would run you maybe $2400-2500 based on current used prices.

I'm no B&K expert, but the 507 with a net weight of 50lbs for a 7-channel amp and processing section? If I were you, and you have the budget, go separates. As Andrew Pratt already mentioned, the issue of shared power supplies comes up. You can do Ref 50 and 200.5 (375 into 4ohms I think) for under $3G and then you'll be set. The idea of swapping components as well...if you have amps and processors in the same box, well...if you want to upgrade amps, you've sunk alot of money into one box that now has to stay and act as processor with idle amps.

And wattage isn't the issue. Sustaining it with adequate current is. And that's all I'm going to say on that.

 

[FeisalK]

Jorge, no worries re sig

instead of getting a pre-pro and multichannel poweramp, you could also get a decent receiver (with pre-outs) and a beefy 2 channel poweramp just for the front pair

 

[JorgeG]

Thanks for the reply Charlie. Point well taken ChrisHeflen. My room is actually set up for 6.1 (I have 2surround and 1 center rear inceiling SpeakerCraft AIMones) in conjunction with the Logans. After doing a lot of research on great forums like this, I realized that 6.1 isn't very well supported and I basically need to decide between 5.1 and disconnect the rear center or 7.1 and connect the rear center to one of the side surround outs on the receiver. It will be too much trouble to start messing up the drywall to put in additional inwall speakers for eventual true 7.1. ChrisHeflen makes a good point about listening to the products at home, but unfortunately my house won't be complete until October and the vendor offering the B&K AVR 507-new @ $2000 is for a limited time only so I don't have the opportunity to test this unit out at home. Being that my primary purpose is HT, I don't know if I'll miss on a great deal with the 507 (usually $3000 new) versus going with the Yamaha/Rotel combo for $1800. I haven't found a sub yet, but after reading this forum site I've learned the SVS and Hsu seem to come highly recommended. Any other recommendations for around $500 for the sub? Thanks for everybody's imput, you guys have been very helpful.

Jorge

 

[Chip E]

Jorge,

I hope you enjoy it. Congrats..

 

[Paul His]

Jorge,

To add to your stack of suggestions received, I have a yamaha 3300 receiver and a bryston 3b amp (a 100+ watts/2 channel amp) The bryston powers the 2 mains (music and movies) and the yamaha powers the other 3 or 4 channels for movies.

Advantages of this setup are that the separate amp provides incredible depth and clarity to music. It also takes a major load off the receiver during movies, so that the receiver is fine for other channels even if you do listen real loud.

Another advantage is that you can get a similar setup to this one, and have a bunch of money left over from your budget.

You can substitute other brand names and types to those noted above, but I think a decent receiver and a really good 2-channel amp is a good solution to someone setting up for HT and music without remortgaging the house.

Paul

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but ...

Power = voltage * current

You can't have one without the other.

 

[TimRP]

I don't have ML speakers, but I did go searching for seperates about 8months ago. I ended up with a B&K ref50 and four Crown XLS amps. 3 of my amps are rated at 260w at 8ohms, plenty of power for your ML's. Pro amps are way under rated on this forum, atleast give them a try. As I see it if you want to try some pro amps you can do two things: 1) you can rent from a pro-sound dealer/rent shop and if you like it, buy them 2) you can buy a amp from Ebay, try it out, if you like it keep it and buy some more, if you hate it turn around and sell it on Ebay.

The dynamics of my system improved a lot when I bought the amps (as I was using a receiver to power my set up at that time). There is a clarity there that can not be dismissed by myself or my wife. Its really a good option...

 

[Drew_W]

Tim brings up the best point yet. If you buy smart from the used market, you can always flip that stuff for what you paid, or slightly off that mark (shipping costs not included). Makes upgrading painless since you can recover your initial investment (or very close to it, in MOST cases). And you can fool around with the items, see if you like them, and flip them if you don't. Just a few weeks ago I had 4 universal players from Denon and Pioneer Elite here, flipped my 2200 for $250CAD more than I paid for it, which almost paid for my upgrade to the 2900...differential ended up being $50CAD. Broke even on the Pioneer Elite front, made a slight profit on the 45A, took a slight loss on the 47Ai.

It's all good fun. Just make sure it doesn't make you (or the people you live with) go nuts.