When Sub size is an issue... (1 Viewer)

[Mark Seaton]

As Kevin mentioned, the first issue of Stereophile Ultimate AV has what I believe is one of the most in-depth subwoofer surveys I have yet to see in print. This subwoofer survey includes 12 of the bigger subwoofers on the market. In the current issue is the first 4 of the 12, with 2 more parts to come. A very important detail of the testing and listening done is that anyone could repeat the measurements, as all were done outside. While a complex topic, we do mostly understand what happens to subwoofers when placed in a room, so outdoor measurements make for an equal environment in which to compare.

Check out Keith's description of the measurement and listening process he used:
Measurements & Meaning: Way Down Deep

I believe there has also been a previous review of this sub in SGHT, but this one really lets us know what the subs can and cannot do.

Cheers,

 

[jeff.adams]

Thanks Kevin and Mark about the info on the article in Stereophile UAV. On the Revel web site, they say that the B15 was rated "AAAA" (top rating) but I spent a good 15 minutes searching the site (because it said that this ocurred in the March issue so I assumed it was 3 months ago what with the future dates on these magazines) and never could find anything. Guess this is a good time to re-subscribe . In the mean time, can either of you provide some data?

Thanks very much,
Jeff

 

[jeff.adams]

Jeff:

I looked at the SVS link you provided and re-read the article there (turns out I had actually read that probably a year ago). They seem to make one specific comparison of a tube to a box, but go on to say that it's (words to this effect) virtually impossible to do in a tube what the PB2- that has 2 each 12" drivers in it. So I'm left guessing what the best tube sub can do in terms of output at 20 Hz. Or maybe not - I see that Secrets (Mr. Johnson) reviewed the CS-Ultra 16-39. And that he measured 112 dB at 20 Hz. But is that at 8" mic distance? And 13% THD? So I'm not quite sure what to make of that or how to compare it to other numbers (I thought for example that TN limits output to 10%, and I thought it was 1 meter, not 8" that he measures at). Does anyone who has the article know if any SVS cylinder subs have been reviewed or are scheduled for review?

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Chris A H]

I also had WAF issues with size and color (big and black did not go with the room's color scheme). Tubes were definitely out. I tried some smaller black box subs that could be hidden away, but and all had middling performance (my room is 15x20x8). I returned them all.

So I took a different tack and "sold" the idea that we could get something that would fit the room scheme and not be to big. Either wood finish or some other colored finish.

Finally decided on a SVS PB1-ISD in the tan-granite color (my wife picked the color!). Great performance, color fit the room, small enough to fit next to the couch as an end table or in the corner behind the couch.

This worked great for me. Finish flexibility allowed me to get the best performance for my dollar.

 

[jeff.adams]

Chris:

It's possible that your approach might actually work. Unfortunately the only place a sub as an end-table would work is not in a corner. But it's still worth a try

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[jeff.adams]

Ok, so I've re-subscribed to the (new) Stereophile Ultimate AV, in the hopes that I get the current issue that reviews the B15. Can anyone share some data from the review? Does the B15 perform? I assume so if the Revel website says that SAV gave it their top rating.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Mark Seaton]

Hey Jeff,

There are a whole slew of measurements in the review. The B15 was by no means the output leader, but it was reasonably capable for it's size and cost. Another subwoofer in this review is by Kleiss; the S15A. It compared rather well and in some ways better, is similar in size, without the rosewood finish. The June issue is in newstands now. I just saw it at Borders last night.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Jeff- Yeah, that issue came out just last week. Any (reputable!) book store, Frys, etc, should have it.

Home Theater did 2 of these articles a while back too. (I haven't checked to see if it's the same writer, but the outdoor pictures look the same.) I just don't understand why an SVS hasn't shown up yet in any of these.

 

[Shane Morales]

What about the Sunfire subs?

http://www.sunfire.com/subwoofers.htm

 

[Mark Seaton]

Hi Jeff,

I have the review in front of me here, and all in all the B15 performs rather well at moderate levels. Do keep in mind that these are outdoor measurements, so corner placement at 2m(Nousaine's method) would likely be 3-6dB higher plus more gain to the sub 20-30Hz region where there could be as much as 3-10dB gain on top of the corner gains.

At 20Hz the peak output before audible distortion, taken in the method Keele and Sigfried Linkwitz used and later similarly by Nousaine (who added a 10% limit), the B15 delivered 104dB @ 1m outside. Above 31Hz it delivered >110dB under the same test. In the slow, swept sine testing with the TEF 20 analyzer, the B15 exhibited significant compression in the low end at nominal levels above 105dB. Response wise, outside it was about -10dB at 15-16Hz up to a nominal level of 105dB.

Interestingly, the Kleiss S15A also in this part of the review, has very similar response characteristics with more low end extension being only 5-6dB down at 15Hz. Maximum output was significantly higher at 110dB @ 20Hz and more than 114dB above 31Hz. This is of similar concept and size, but with an even higher excursion driver. This higher excursion design did also exhibit somewhat more distortion, but was more linear dynamically where it didn't show major deviation from its low level response until the 110dB sweep. The low end did exhibit a good deal more distortion below 20-25Hz in lew of this increased low end and output. It is fairly close in price, carrying a retail price of $500 less but without a rosewood veneer and with a single band of parametric EQ.

Hope that helps.

 

[jeff.adams]

Mark, thanks for the data. Sounds like the B15 is respectable but not outstanding. Hmm. Have to investigate the other one you listed (never heard of it before you mentioned it though).

Regarding the Sunfire subs, although I have not investigated measurement data, I don't believe that they can truly produce the kind of 20 Hz output that I want (I don't want to start a flame war, just thinking out loud that the laws of physics are kind of working against such a small diameter driver).

 

[jeff.adams]

I finally had the time to look at the Kleiss products. Very interesting. The S18A also looks interesting . Has anyone ever _heard_ of this company? On the "About Us" page they talk about active studio monitors, but under "Products" I see nothing about this. Also, when you click on any of the passive model subs, you don't get anything (apparently they don't exist yet?) They are local (sort of) to me, in Sausalito CA. Does anyone know who the principles in this company are? Their web site is pretty minimalistic.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~aco...imanjaro.shtml

Looks like it fits your size requirements.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>I just don't understand why an SVS hasn't shown up yet in any of these

 

[Kevin C Brown]

I suppose some of us could write/email them and *ask* that SVS be included in a future test.

 

[jeff.adams]

Kevin:

Regarding why SVS doesn't show up in this (or other) shootouts: I recall that Stereophile (the 2 channel mag) has some kind of review policy about a product having to be available from at least five dealers or something like that. However they have made exceptions for products available via Audio Advisor. And I believe the reason was that AA offers a return policy and has been known to have good customer service. Well, I think that SVS would meet those requirements, and their customer service seems legendary.

Jeff

 

[jeff.adams]

Jack:

Yes, that looks like a very interesting product (the Kilimanjaro from acoustic visions). Interestingly, it talks about being flat to the mid 20 Hz range. I was hoping for sub 20 Hz response. Seems like the driver has plenty of excursion, but I guess the way the box is tuned, it is designed more for the max 25 Hz and up response target. Oh well. Having said that, has anyone seen any review numbers on this interesting looking sub?

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[jeff.adams]

Tom V:

So, has anyone ever asked before about when (if ever) you plan to come out with a small cube-type sub a la Revel B15, or the Kleiss S15A model being reviewed in the SAAV June issue, or the Pinnacle Kilimanjaro that Jack referenced a few posts above? Or are there simply too many design compromises necessary? Inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Hi Jeff,

That is one of the most common questions we get at SVS( when/if will SVS offer "small" subwoofers).

Those two models(B15 or S15) aren't really what most would consider "small". They are a bit larger than our PB-1isd and a bit smaller than our PB-1+.

Tom V.
SVS

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Sealed boxes aren't "tuned" in the sense that reflex boxes are. It's certainly capable of sub-20Hz response, but it really depends on room gain. EQ can be used, but it eats up power pretty quickly. Not seen of any reviews, but there's a Nousaine review of a similar sub here:

http://www.diycable.com/main/product...0ee27d4410b797

These aren't small subs, really, and I might just bite the bullet and go for one of the smaller SVS boxes if I were you.