What's the OAR of City Lights? (1 Viewer)

[Rain]

Ok, so I've had this DVD for a while, but never really took a close look at it until last night.
According to www.imdb.com the OAR is 1.37:1. However, it is definitely not 1.37:1 on my copy of the DVD.
As you probably know, the Image Chaplins were windowboxed. Ok, fine. When I look at Modern Times, for example, I see a windowboxed frame on all the borders and the image appears to be about 1.37:1.
But with City Lights, I get no borders on the top and bottom of the screen, only on the sides, rendering an image which is narrrower than 1.37:1 (and significantly so).
Also looking at the frame on City Lights, I noticed that the corners are angular on the left side (top and bottom), but rounded on the right side (top and bottom). This makes it look a bit awkward as well.
Anyone have any idea what the heck is going on here?

 

[Mark Zimmer]

No idea myself, but I just emailed your question to disc producer David Shepard. I'll post when I hear something.

 

[Steve Enemark]

I remember reading once how early "talkies" were narrower than 1.37:1 because the soundtrack took up some of the room. Later, the film image was shrunk somewhat, to maintain the Academy ratio. I'd post a source, if I could only remember where I read it.

 

[Rain]

Steve, your theory does seem logical and I have seen some early talkies with ARs listed as narrower than 1.37:1 on www.imdb.com.
However, if that is the case, shouldn't Modern Times be the same...it also has a soundtrack?

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

Around the late 20s and early 30s there was fluctuation in the aspect ratio of films as they wrestled with how to incorporate the sound track. The windowboxed City Lights is probably correct.

Regards,

 

[Patrick McCart]

City Light's aspect ratio is roughly 1.28:1

Because it was released in 1931 (and actually made between 1928 and 1930), it was filmed in the Fox MovieTone process.

This resulted in a squarer frame. Modern Times, though, was filmed with standard mono optical sound in mind, so it has the normal 1.37:1 ratio.

A neat piece of trivia: David Shepard, who produced the Image Chaplin DVD's actually invented windowboxing. (Someone at Columbia Home Video invented letterboxing, however.)

 

[george kaplan]

I raised some similar issues a while back and was lambasted by the (supposedly) pro-OAR folks for worrying about losing such a small percentage of the picture, so I'm not touching this one with a ten-foot pole.

 

[Rain]

City Light's aspect ratio is roughly 1.28:1

If that is correct, then the DVD is NOT OAR. There is no getting around that.

I'm going to try to get a precise measurement.

 

[Peter Apruzzese]

But if it's pillar-boxed on the sides, then this is probably a lot closer to the squarer aspect ratio, no? AFAIK, "silent" aspect ratio was ~1.33, "sound" aspect ratio is ~1.37.

 

[Rain]

Well, eye-balling it, it looks like about 1:1 on the DVD. But I have no way to make a precise measurement myself. In this regard, I have requested some assistance and I'll let you know if I'm able to find out anything.

 

[Patrick McCart]

I thought it looked like 1:1 at first, but then I measured it. It was roughly 1.25:1 after the measurment. 1.28:1 is more precise.
www.widescreenmuseum.com has some diagrams showing a Movietone frame.

 

[Hendrik]

FYI: ...the German BMG two-disc UFA Klassiker Edition of Der Blaue Engel and the concurrently filmed English language version The Blue Angel (1930) lists an AR of 1:1,19 - which, on my display, results in a very narrow vertical black bar to the right of the image...
...certainly in the very early days of sound-on-film ARs varied - from film to film, and possibly even from studio to studio, depending on what sound process was used... IIRC the DVD of the original All Quiet On The Western Front also features a narrower-than 1.33:1 image...
. . . . . .

 

[TedD]

It IS OAR. 1.2:1 was the A.R. that is was filmed in. It was filmed by using the full height of the 35mm frame with framelines that were about 1/32" thick. Standard 1.37:1 uses thicker frame lines (about 1/8") and does not actually use the full height of the 35mm frame. Anamorphic 35mm also uses these thin frame lines, and 2.40:1 divided by 2x expansion factor with area reserved for an optical sound track = ~1.20:1.

Ted

 

[Rain]

I'm a bit relieved, as it is beginning to sound more and more like the DVD is correctly framed.
I received this input via email this morning from the very knowledgeable Mike Coate over at Widescreen Review. I'm posting this with his permission:

I don't own a copy of "City Lights" (though I should!) and we don't have a
copy here at the office. What I can tell you is that many movies produced in the late-1920s and early-1930s were often in an oddball ratio that's a bit narrower than 1.33:1 (the silent era standard) or 1.37:1 (the sound era
standard; so-called Academy Format). When sound was introduced via an optical track placed along the left edge of the film frame, it appeared where there was once image in the previous silent-era 1.33:1 frame. The area left over once the soundtrack is in place is something in the neighborhood of 1.15:1 (don't quote me on that figure, it may be 1.15:1, 1.16:1, 1.17:1 or 1.18:1 -- it's 1.33:1 minus the size of the optical track). "City Lights" may have been produced before the Academy standardized the 1.37:1 ratio by reducing the height of the frame slightly so the ratio could once again be close to what it was (1.33:1).
Now, what is the actual OAR of "City Lights" based on any
groundglass markings on the camera(s) used on that production or based on any "standards" in effect around that time, I don't know. But if you're suggesting that your DVD image isn't quite 1.28:1 (not sure where *that*
figure came from! - might be a typo of 1.18:1) then consider the info supplied in my first paragraph.

Thanks again to Mike for taking time out to answer one of my picky little questions.

 

[Mark Zimmer]

As promised, here's the word from David Shepard himself (sorry for the delay, but a long weekend intervened):

CITY LIGHTS was filmed beginning in 1928 as a silent picture at full aperture.

When CL finally got done, of course sound had arrived and the optical sound

track which he added consumed the left hand side (as projected) of the former

silent picture area.

Therefore, CL, like most films of the transition period was at the so-called

Movietone aperture of 1.2::1.

The 1:33::1 "Academy Aperture" was adopted in 1930 and was achieved by

increasing the width of the frame line to reduce the height of the Movietone

aperture, but to show CL at 1:33 is to seriously crop the vertical part of

the picture. CC tends to use the full aperture height in critical scenes.

Television and 16mm film are 1:37::1.

But neither of these apply to CITY LIGHTS, which was originally run and was

transferred by me at Movietone.

There was also a full aperture version available, and although the images

were obviously composed for full aperture, I decided not to use it because

that is not how it was originally seen in this country.

All the title cards were shot twice: once for full aperture and once for

Movietone.

I'm a little fuzzy on this but I think all four sides of CL are windowboxed,

but to achieve the Movietone ratio the boxing is much less on top and bottom

than on left and right.

Hope this helps.

Best,

David Shepard