What MINIMUM specs. will we accept for HD discs??

Discussion in 'DVD' started by Dan Hitchman, Nov 4, 2003.

  1. Dan Hitchman

    Dan Hitchman Cinematographer

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    Here's the bare minimum blue laser HD disc specs. I would want to invest my time and money in (we should ask for no less since the technology is here to make it happen):

    STORAGE CAPACITY:

    Each disc should contain at least 35-50+ Gigabytes of storage.

    The program's video and audio quality come first and foremost to any and all special features. When all else fails, spread out long movies onto two discs, and put the extras on a separate disc!

    VIDEO:

    Microsoft's Corona-- aka WM9 (or similar or even better open technology that doesn't have the same politics attached to it). MPEG-2 is too long in the tooth and not efficient enough with its own set of problems.

    15-25 Megabits/sec video data rate (depends upon video content and PCM audio bitrate requirements from title to title).

    4:2:2 or 4:4:4 component video signal (no chroma errors should be acceptable).

    10 to 12 bit video (we need greater color and grayscale bit depths than DVD's limited 8 bit data).

    Full 1920 x 1080p (progressive) with 24 to 60 fps support (this will allow for any advancements in motion picture and video capturing frame rates; also allowing for high refresh rates to eliminate any display flickering). Full 1920 x 1080p player throughput.

    Maximum resolution used for each and every aspect ratio. That would include a so-called ~21:9 "anamorphic" enhancement feature. (I discuss this in further detail a few replies down).

    Pro-grade HD video output with no high frequency roll-off (for maximum picture detail).

    Zero edge enhancement or artificial video sharpness, or filtering need be applied!!

    User selectable on-board digital down rezing and upscaling to any and all ATSC and NTSC resolutions for compatibility with a host of TV's for maximum player usage (a one chip digital scaler solution can keep the costs down).

    AUDIO:

    MLP compressed or uncompressed PCM (dependant upon space requirements from title to title) for the primary, premium audio track.

    1.0 to 8.0 channel discrete PCM.

    Minimum 24 bit/96 kHz PCM resolution for surround tracks. 24 bit/192 kHz PCM resolution will supported in various channel configurations, not just stereo and mono (taking into account space requirements).

    96 kilobits/sec Dolby Digital for audio commentary sub-channels. They need not take up a lot of space.

    Full spec. DTS and/or Dolby Digital track for backwards compatibility with current receivers and processors on the market.

    A/V OUTPUTS:

    Firewire IEEE 1394b (for direct video stream and/or low and high bitrate audio format data transport).

    HDMI v.2 (for fully uncompressed video stream and/or low and high bitrate audio data format transport).

    Component analog video output (no down-rezing).

    Composite and S-Video analog video outputs.

    Optical (Toslink) and Coaxial digital outputs (for backwards compatibility with DTS, Dolby Digital, and 24/96 stereo PCM decoders).

    MISCELLANEOUS:

    No DRM licensing required, and/or other intrusive Big Brother measures (such as tying the software to one player like DIVX, DRM, and the like-- any attempt at this by Hollywood will fail!). In fact, the only outside port I'd like to see is something like a USB 2.0 connector that could allow the consumer to upgrade the software should it become necessary. And allow for a free disc based software upgrade solution as well for those without computers near their players.

    No audio watermarking like with DVD-Audio.

    Respecting the Original Aspect Ratio on all materials is A MUST!!!


    ___________________

    We need to get behind a set of minimum specifications the home theater community will accept so we can show a unified front to the DVD Forum, the Blu-Ray Consortium, and Hollywood studios and video production houses. I, for one, will not accept a watered down, lowest common denominator format full of compromises and political intrigue when we all know the technology is right in front of us to have a superb, high data storage capacity, pre-recorded High Definition audio and video format by around 2005.

    I will not buy into the DVD Forum's latest red laser plans. Period. They've milked this cow one too many times!

    Care to comment and make suggestions?

    Dan
     
  2. Thomas Newton

    Thomas Newton Screenwriter

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    "Whole disc is just a big filesystem" design (i.e., the DVD approach as opposed to the hybrid CD-Audio/ROM one).

    Full backwards compatibility with prerecorded and home-made DVD-Video and CD-Audio discs. (Any HD-DVD player should be able to play any DVD or CD.)

    Should accomodate production of home videos (e.g., if the preferred video codec for prerecorded movies turns out to be too CPU-intensive for home machines, have support for an alternate format like MPEG-2).

    Support for MiniDV. (The least lossy way of storing home videos made on a digital camcorder.) A blue laser disc with 20 - 30 GB of storage could hold an hour or two of MiniDV-format video.
     
  3. Thomas Newton

    Thomas Newton Screenwriter

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    Just thought of another one:

    Relaxation of the '99' limits that keep showing up everywhere in the DVD specification. I ran into several of these when trying to make a "family photo archive" DVD.
     
  4. PhilBoy

    PhilBoy Second Unit

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    dual layer 50 MB BluRay see if you can make them w/o the protective case.

    720p 24fps 25Mbps 24 bit color (not mpeg2)

    5.1 MLP 24/48
     
  5. Alex Spindler

    Alex Spindler Producer

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    Perhaps I haven't been keeping myself up to date. What recent changes have happened?
     
  6. Neil Joseph

    Neil Joseph Lead Actor

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    Dumb question...

    If this device is native 1920x1080 (1080 progressive), what happens when you hook it up to a display that can accept only 1080i or 720p but does not accept the full 1080p?
     
  7. Thomas Newton

    Thomas Newton Screenwriter

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  8. Thomas Newton

    Thomas Newton Screenwriter

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  9. AaronMK

    AaronMK Supporting Actor

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  10. HorstenG

    HorstenG Auditioning

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    I'd like to see:

    A standard, durable caddy system to protect the disc at all times and protect the incredibly small and sensitive pits if the discs are going be standard sized with a 50gb capacity. I was no fan of the caddy back in the 2x CD-Rom day, but with so much data in such a small area, a small scratch could have a big effect. I've never been a fan of, or very good at, snapping discs in and out of their hubs.

    As little DRM as possible, and if there must be, ensure it does not tie itself into A/V quality, Ie: Macrovision, watermarking or player-corrected errors in the digial signal.

    A new system for player-generated subtitles and menu-selection highlighting. I'm not sure about the pro-grade players but everything I've seen so far has looked ugly. Perhaps standard 2nd screen subtitling options, like the kind I've only read about in high-brow cinemas.

    This is my first post to the forum after lurking for a year. Thanks for having me aboard!
     
  11. Rob Tomlin

    Rob Tomlin Producer

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  12. JonZ

    JonZ Lead Actor

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    Welcome! [​IMG]
     
  13. Patrick McCart

    Patrick McCart Lead Actor

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    The new HD system needs to be variable-speed. This way, films can be shown at true 24fps. NTSC video (like a TV show) would be 29.94 fps. PAL would be 25 fps.

    Plus, this would allow silent films to be shown at true speed without all kinds of tricks.

    Also, the 16x9 frame area would be used fully. The players would decode the image to be 1.33:1, 1.66:1, 1.78:1, 2.35:1, etc. This would allow for the best possible image resolution (and no waste).
     
  14. Thomas Newton

    Thomas Newton Screenwriter

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    NO forced trailers, forced "FBI warnings", etc.!!!!!

    The specification should not make it an option to disable user navigation controls for these reasons.

    All prerecorded discs should open with the program or the main menu. "FBI warnings", if included, should only come at the very end of the presentation.
     
  15. MatthewLouwrens

    MatthewLouwrens Producer

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    Horsten - Welcome.

     
  16. Dan Hitchman

    Dan Hitchman Cinematographer

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    PatrickMcCart:

    All good ideas that I mentioned in my post in a round about sort of way. I didn't get really specific, but my intention was the same: multiple frame rates supported.

    I would go so far as to have "anamorphic" ~21x9 enhancement for wider than 1.85:1 films so that a telecine scanner would pick up the maximum detail with no loss during the telecine stage. This would require the film to be captured at a much higher than 1080p resolution (possibly 2k or the up and coming 4k mode) and then (as an example) the 2.35:1 ratio frame would be "squeezed" into the 1920 x 1080p 1.78:1 HDTV fixed ratio frame with no black bars and higher than normal picture quality maintained. Therefore the entire 2.35:1 frame would get the complete 1920 x 1080p resolution with no black bars wasting needed pixels. Other ratios would either be similarly resolution enhanced, but with slight pillarboxing (such as with 65/70mm films with a 2.20:1 ratio) or letterboxing added (for those rare films in 2.55:1 or 2.76:1).

    Those with a standard 1.78:1 HDTV would see the same 2.35:1 image but with player created black bars on the top and bottom as before (and advanced enhancement digital downconversion). Those with a 1.78:1 digital front projector (soon to be 1080p and greater) and special anamorphic lens would get the full glory of the 2.35:1 (etc.) ratio image at maximum resolution and fullest detail with no black bars and a much wider, clearer picture to boot. The constant height, variable width commercial theater concept that has been out of our grasp would finally come home. Why would you want a 2.35:1 movie to be presented smaller than a 1.78:1 HDTV program?

    I've been pushing for this feature for a while now. I think it can be done, and should be. It's not out of the capabilities of today's advanced digital 2k and 4k telecine equipment.

    Dan
     
  17. Dan Rudolph

    Dan Rudolph Producer

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    Agreed on variable speed. Let the player do framerate conversions as necessary.
     
  18. Dan Hitchman

    Dan Hitchman Cinematographer

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    Keep 'em coming!!

    Dan
     

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