What makes a good HT speaker as apposed to a good Music speaker. (1 Viewer)

[MarkRoberts]

This makes no sense to me at all. No matter how good they reproduce sound they are no good for HT?! HUH??

According to THX the concept is to make every seat in the theater sound as good as any other.Sounds like a good idea to me,at first. What this means to me given the extreme off-axis seating in theaters they have to make the "best" seating positions sound as bad as the extreme off-axis ones. Unless some one can explain why/how they make the sides(against the wall,under the speakers) and rear(under the speakers) corners sound as good as the center ones. Oh, wait its a big "THX" secret.Since they only provide a partial list of the actual requirements.Manufacturers are required to sign a non disclosure agreement about the rest. Google if you don't believe me.
Now I don't know about you but I don't have any major off-axis seating in my theater so why do I need equipment to account for it?
Or should I just be a good little automaton and nod my head and keep in line with the THX overlords. Thats another joke BTW.

 

[MarkRoberts]

For anyone interested:
Here is a link to a interview with a THX guy.

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

Wow. Great stuff. You know, I emailed M&K, and I asked them about using hifi speakers for home theater applications.

The guy told me that it's utter crap that you can't use good hifi speakers for an AV role. This is from the official M&K website. So, yeah.

Greg, thank you that informative post. Great information, although I don't know if I completely agree with you though. Is it a fact that hi fi speakers move slower than hifi speakers for AV?

Is there an article that could shed light on this? Because I've heard my manager claim this again and again and I need to know if it's bunk or not. Just for interest's sake.

--Sincerely,

 

[Scott Simonian]

Well, if it didn't move fast enough for movies what makes it fast enough for music? That, I do not get.

 

[Jack Keck]

I would hope that the guy who wanted to build a HT around his B & W Nautilus fronts knows enough about what sounds good to him to know whether or not your manager knows his stuff.

Either that or he has more money than sense.

Furthermore, I have Mr. Hardesty's book on sub that he wrote for Widescreen Review and the first 8 of his Audio Perfectionist. I respect his opinions and experience. However, my budget does not allow for thetype of stuff he reviews. However, I built a ported sub and listen to acoustic bass. It sounds good to me.

And I don't even have a BFD yet.

He did say one thing that I remembered because it indicated that he understood that "high end" isn't for everyone. He was talking about cables and said that if one thinks that there is no difference between speaker wire, then one chould get a receiver from Marantz or Denon and some well-engineered speakers from Polk or Infinity and you'll have good sound and value for years to come.

 

[Greg Monfort]

Greets!


Sounds like sarcasm to me. Actually, your layout will benefit from controlled directivity/~flat power response far more than one with major off-axis requirements since you ideally want the first reflections from the mains/CC to be behind the seating area and the surrounds at the opposite side wall (or screen wall if rear surrounds are used).

GM

 

[Greg Monfort]

Greets!


Unfortunately I can't think of an easily understood example at the moment to explain it further other than to recommend that you study JBL's cinema design and Dolby's 5.1 production guidelines manuals. Between the two it should become transparent why HT and music speaker's 'speed' requirements are different, ergo to some extent mutually exclusive if you're doing HT as it was originally intended to 'sound'.

GM

 

[MarkRoberts]

I agree if someone doesn't know or care to learn about it that THX equipment may be the right choice for that person.
However for Vaughan's manager to reject the idea of the customer to use his B&W's seems rude and insulting,to me. If the guy likes the sound of the B&W's he may well enjoy a HT made up of B&W speakers. As far as recommending the magazine reviews. It was just to point out that in can be done and with good results. How good the results are/were are pure speculation to the reader but doesn't mean the option shouldn't be explored. I would have recommended the guy audition a whole B&W setup using his pre/pro and amp and see for himself. I am sure a good B&W dealer would allow this, maybe by appointment only.
At the end of my last post I was being sarcastic maybe a little too much. Sorry.

 

[MarkRoberts]

I forgot to ask how can you tell this from spec. sheet and xo point? I mean wouldn't you have to actually listen to them to tell how well they handle directivity? I mean without intimate knowledge of the actual xo or testing them how can you be sure?

 

[Andrew S-]

You can look at the off-axis FR plot.




Theres a lot of labeling going on here. Frankly, people need to go out and see what they actually like. Screw being an audiophile or a HT enthusiast. Be a person who knows what he/she likes and work at getting it. Go audition as many speakers as you can and then talk about it with people here. Say what you liked and what you didnt like about each speaker.




As for the music speakers not lasting in a HT....this is entirely dependant on how the speakers are setup. The only ways to blow a speaker are going over its thermal limit, moving it passed it mechanical limits, or a manufacturer/design flaw. HT does have larger transients than music but that doesnt mean your speakers cant handle it. The problem comes when you set your maximum volume with the average volume either in a move or in music. Then a higher volume is played for impact in the source material and you overpower your speakers. If you plan ahead and learn the limits of your speaker in advance you will never have this problems. The way to do that is simply measuring how much power you are putting to the speaker with a 0db reference level test tone. Note the volume level you reach the power handling limits of your speaker and never exceed this point. It makes sense to stay slightly under this point because some music/movies are recorded with certain parts clipping which will stress the speaker more than the reference level tones. So lowering your maximum volume down a notch is a very good idea.

 

[MarkRoberts]

Andrew,
I tried to find one on B&W's site and was unable. So I assumed he was refering to the specs I did find which didn't provide much info at all.
I totally agree with you about listening for your self. I also agree with you about "reference" level. I usually watch around -10 under reference. I find this to be plenty loud and I don't have to go diving for the remote when a soundtrack is louder than expected. I don't think my ears could handle the opening war scene in saving private ryan.
I just don't like it when people dismiss the idea of using part of an existing system. Like the comment about not using the B&W's.

 

[Greg Monfort]

Greets!


'Good results' probably only in personal opinion since typically no complete definitive HT 'rules' (be they THX/Dolby/DTS) are used to compare them against since few speaker systems would pass. This doesn't mean to imply that it sucked or anything else beyond the fact that it probably didn't recreate the A/V 'event' as envisioned by the producer and for sure doesn't ~mimic the original cinema experience, which is fine in some ways since HT can be/is far superior due to economies of scale.

GM

 

[Greg Monfort]

Greets, part deux!


The size, shape of the tweeter and its housing combined with a 4 kHz XO point (IIRC, short term memory is shot) makes it physically impossible with current technology to have any useful radial dispersion with a ~flat power response (less vertical than horizontal, IOW ~rectangular like you get out of say a 90 x 40 (deg) constant directivity (CD) horn), much less a narrowly defined one as required in all cinemas and most HTs.

GM

 

[MarkRoberts]

Greg,
I am under the impression that you think the only (serious) HT's are THX certified. Is that what you think or am I misunderstanding you? I'm not trying to aggravate anyone.

Just curious you mentioned in a earlier post that you prefer compression horn speakers. Why? I haven't heard many just a few klipsch models. Not knocking them just wondering what about them you prefer and why.

As far as THX goes I have been to several theaters that have a certified auditorium and enjoyed them all. The first time was in Tulsa,OK. It was Predator 2 I was very much blown away. That was when most theaters in the area had just stereo. The ones I have been to recently in Chicago,IL.they always sound good. The difference between the certified auditoriums and the non-THX ones just doesn't seem as dramatic as it was when I first went to one.

I guess to answer your question as to why I think putting your "stock" into THX is bad. I actually shouldn't say "bad" I don't mean that it is inferior. I just think one should make there decision based on what they like. Some like bright forward sound some people prefer a more laid back sound or however you want to describe it.What is unacceptable to one person is great to another.
I think blindly accepting anything whether it is THX or anything else is foolish. Unfortunately I don't know of a place that has THX certified HT set-up that I can audition myself. I sure don't have the money it would take to have one built just to audition .

 

[Greg Monfort]

Greets!


Foolish?! Clearly, we disagree WRT to THX. One more time, 'HT' as originally envisioned isn't about pandering to folk's music listening preferences! Far from it, and getting back on topic, why using typical HI-FI speakers for HT and vice versa are for the most part mutually exclusive.

Equally clearly, even though you never answered my request to elaborate on your original assertion that the audio engineer with a 'bizillion' certificates (and me by association) are 'out of date', it's apparently true if yours and other's posted opinions on what constitutes quality 'HT' and how to attain it are indeed the new reference.

GM