What is Red Push?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Luke_A, Jun 24, 2001.

  1. Luke_A

    Luke_A Agent

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    I have heard people mention Red Push here and there, and many people turn it off. What exactly is red push, and how would I go about getting rid of it if it is bad?
     
  2. ThomasL

    ThomasL Supporting Actor

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    Red push is simply the tv's color decoder overemphasizing red in relationship to the other two primary colors in a tv's system - green and blue. You need a dvd disc such as Avia to look at a test pattern to tell if your set pushes red and by approx. how much. Most tv sets do. The easiest solution is to lower the overall color saturation via the color user control. This will also lower green and blue but it'll make red less vibrant. For most this is sufficient. Some tvs will allow one to adjust the amount of red, green and blue individually much like some computer monitors do. Usually this is done via a service/designer level menu system that normally you never enter - it is mainly meant for technicians and calibrationists. Some sets also have individual "boolean" settings which allow one to turn red push on and off. Essentially all this means is that the computer has a program which reads this variable and if it is 1 (or something), it'll kick up the red, otherwise, it won't.
    hope this helps,
    --tom
     
  3. Jay Mitchosky

    Jay Mitchosky Producer

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  4. Leroy

    Leroy Second Unit

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    You can make a simple "attenuator" from Radio Shack parts that will take care of the red push issue, at least on your component inputs. I noticed a HUGE difference on my Mits 46807 when I installed one. Adjusting the color does not "fix" the problem since you are also affecting the rest of the spectrum.
    What set do you have?
     
  5. James Peench

    James Peench Auditioning

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  6. Jay Mitchosky

    Jay Mitchosky Producer

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    The attenuator is a bona fide effective solution to reducing red push while maintaining overall color saturation. Just note that it only addresses this issue for the component input where it is used.
    ------------------
    --Jay
    "No one can hear when you're screaming in digital."
    My Home Theatre Pictures...
    "You're no mesiah. You're, you're a movie of the week. You're a ... t-shirt, at best."
     
  7. Andrew Beacom

    Andrew Beacom Supporting Actor

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    Jay,
    >>Manufacturers purposely set their color temperatures (ie. grayscale) too hot/blue.
     
  8. Jay Mitchosky

    Jay Mitchosky Producer

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  9. ThomasL

    ThomasL Supporting Actor

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    I suspect also that manufacturers have a high color temperature (i.e. blue/cool setting) because it seems to create a high contrast picture. A more blue grayscale creates brighter/more intense whites and darker darks. It seems that a lot of people like that type of picture. The red push seems to be added in order to then gloss over the more blueish picture which the grayscale settings gives you (i.e. instead of blueish faces, we get reddish faces). I wondered if also research about what is the best overall settings for generic cable tv have led manufacturers to these settings. Essentially trying to find default values which will best mask the color, tint and contrast variations that one gets from all the different cable channels. I must say that I'm somewhat disappointed that the Toshiba 20AF41 pushes red and seems to be on the blue side in the grayscale. It's odd that Toshiba would take a step backwards since the earlier 2000 model A series seem to have a very neutral grayscale and a balanced color decoder.
    cheers,
    --tom
     
  10. Jay Mitchosky

    Jay Mitchosky Producer

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    quote: I must say that I'm somewhat disappointed that the Toshiba 20AF41 pushes red and seems to be on the blue side in the grayscale. It's odd that Toshiba would take a step backwards since the earlier 2000 model A series seem to have a very neutral grayscale and a balanced color decoder.[/quote]
    How blue is blue? There are not many sets that track accurately from the factory. The most amazing test report I have seen was in last month's HT Magazine with a Princeton Graphics monitor. It was a little wild from the factory, but after calibration it tracked absolutely flat at 6500K from one end of the scale to the other. Unbelievable! It's color decoder was almost bang on as well if I recall. Is it any wonder why the legendary Joe Kane uses PG as his reference monitor?
    The swing on the decoder is strange, though, considering that their RPTVs followed the opposite trend. Last year's X81 series pushed red to extremes, whereas this year's H series has it almost neutral. Grayscale is still high, but fortunately that's remedied easily enough given access to a tech (ISF or otherwise) with a color analyzer).
    ------------------
    --Jay
    "No one can hear when you're screaming in digital."
    My Home Theatre Pictures...
    "You're no mesiah. You're, you're a movie of the week. You're a ... t-shirt, at best."
     
  11. ThomasL

    ThomasL Supporting Actor

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    Jay, I have no analyzing equipment so when I say blue, I'm using my eyes and staring at the 10 and 20 IRE window patterns in Avia. I can definitely make out a blue tint on the those patterns on the 20AF41 whereas on the 27A40 tv, it's hard for my eyes to make out any tint. This was using the same dvd player (SD1600). If I can get into the service menu (no menu button on the front so the mechanism to get into the service menu on the newer flat tube Toshibas is different), then I may see if I can tinker with the CUTs and remove the blue a little, at least to the point where I see no discernable tint. But if the picture looks ok to me, then I may just leave it alone. This tv will be 90 percent cable tv and perhaps a few dvds during a cold winters evening. It's small because it's in a living room with a nice fireplace, which is meant to be the center of one's visual attention. I've already been given one room where I can put a bigger tv so I don't get two [​IMG]
    As for the red push, it's not horrible. After calibrating using Avia and the blue filter, I went in and looked at the color decoder pattern. At that point, red seemed to be 15 percent and green about 5-10 percent, hard to say exactly. I'll want to check again. What's funny to me is that I think my eyes are getting better at this. When I first got the tv, and hooked up my older SD1600 dvd player to it, I fired up ST II and immediately my eyes, still using the image of ST II on the 27 inch as a memory reference, saw too much red. I lowered the color saturation until I felt that it looked about the same as what my eyes saw on the other tv. This turned out to be 23 on the user menu setting. When I did the Avia calibration, after the blue filter test to set color and tint, I was at 28. Then after compensating for the red push, where did I end up? 23 [​IMG]
    cheers,
    --tom
     
  12. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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    The crazy thing about this is (if I understand this correctly) component inputs shouldn't even be going through the colour decoder in the first place.
    In fact, with component video, colour and tint controls should not exist!
    ------------------
    John Golitsis
    Next Big Thing Electronics
     
  13. Jay Mitchosky

    Jay Mitchosky Producer

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  14. ThomasL

    ThomasL Supporting Actor

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    Yes, on a computer monitor, there usually is a RGB adjustment where you can adjust the levels of the individual analog signals for each color. It can vary though, for example, the monitor in front of me has a color temperature setting only with 6500K, 9300K and then something called "user color". Within this menu, it looks like it lets me change R, G, B and also there is a Hue adjustment. Of course, I haven't read the manual (who does? [​IMG] ) so I am not sure what I am changing exactly.
    cheers,
    --tom
     

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