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Discussion in 'Music' started by Lee Scoggins, May 1, 2004.
You can't trust those P.E. teachers ... they're always takin stuff away ...
Just got three (24-96) High Res Downloads:
By The Way, I Forgive You - Brandi Carlile
Vanished Gardens – Charles Lloyed & The Marvels (w/ Lucinda Williams)
Melodic Canvas – Robin McKelle
Phil, I added that Dunedin Wolfie "Requiem" to my List when I first saw word of it months ago. I think I've mentioned in these pages that I was so impressed by their "St. Matthew Passion" that I got their "Messiah" as well. I have too many other things to get which I have no version of yet to buy another "Req" anytime soon but, as you alluded to, it does not surprise me that its excellent.
How is the singing? I'm sure the whole performance it is very "precise" and "proper" and chamber-esque. I was spoiled very early by Robert Shaw: his Atlanta Symphony & Chorus recording for Telarc (released in I think 1984) was my first Wolfie "Req" and I didn't realize until many years later how huge that ensemble is and how the "Req" was not arranged for that many players/singers. It took me a long while before I would even listen to a smaller performance of that powerful work.
This is Mike. I posted the pic which included the Mozart Requiem.
Unfortunately, I don't have the breadth of understanding of classical music as you and Phil...so I'm not really well-qualified to answer your questions intelligently. But when you describe it:
...I really can't disagree with any of that. It is, after all a "reconstruction" of the first-ever performance of the work. 16 singers. 4 soloists. And Dunedin has the distinction of a particular sound--based on use of period instruments and arrangements.
But I don't know enough to give an informed opinion. I just know that I like certain composers and certain types of pieces and I like it to be well-recorded. Wish I could give you a better answer.
The version has high ratings so I'm sure it's good. Been trying to catch up on the non-classical things (and I probably have 30-40 classical things I bought that I just have not gotten to yet - went on a buying spree when I had tons of things on the wishlist and have not caught up) on my wish list whether it's CDs or downloads. The last classical thing I picked up was the 24-96 version of the below. Excellent recording. There was supposed to be a series of three of these CDs but only two came out.
Picked up this one:
already had the regular CD, but the blu has two bonus tracks, plus it's 24/96 (2 ch) and sounds absolutely fabulous!
I've been enjoying a couple of titles I gave myself for Christmas!
This SACD from MoFi is fantastic. It sounds so clean...like I just cracked open a vinyl copy back in 1966.
To think that this record is 52 years old!
And then there's this one from 1968:
The Blu-ray audio disc is sensational. There is a PCM stereo track alongside DTS-MA and Dolby True HD tracks featuring 5.1 mixes of the album. I have listened to all three and am having a hard time deciding which one I prefer. Haven't listened to the mono yet. I'm a sucker for aggressive surround mixes and the work Giles Martin did on those surround mixes doesn't disappoint. To me, it doesn't seem gimmicky, it sounds really immersive.
I haven't gotten to the CDs yet either.
Songs For Judy - Neil Young hi-res download. Another "Performance Series" archive release, this one one finds Neil playing solo in 1976 and taken from a series of shows I believe. Neil's very stoney and chatty on this one which makes it a rare release of his that can be described as "fun". Worth checking out if you're a fan.
It's way past time for me to get a BIS Records release. Just purchased one of their SA-CDs (in prep for hearing our grand Los Angeles Master Chorale do the Durufle "Requiem" at Disney Hall next month):
Vexing and laughable, all this "sky is falling" writing in pop and even some tech press about how Samsung's exiting the disc player markets signals a packaged media death knell (although Fox not releasing The Favourite on 4K UHD BD is perhaps a troubling sign for at least the Fox/Disney future). Those of us who've been buying CDs for 30+ years and/or are classical music fans and/or have kept right on chuggin' buying SA-CDs and (to perhaps a lesser extent) DVD-As over the past 15 years likely have a different perspective.
Having said that, there might be cause for more specific concern about the future player situation for those of us with DVD-A collections. We're basically down to LG, Sony, Panny and Pio for 4K UHD player manufs now:
Pio's first 4K UHD BD player was just introduced last fall and is their first (I'm not yet tracking an owner thread on this player but first decks for new formats are often buggy . . . and it costs $1K); I may be mistaken but it's my understanding that Panny hasn't supported DVD-A since their first (1080) BD player over 12 years ago; Sony surprisingly started supporting DVD-A with their first 4K UHD BD player (the X1000) but even their support of their own SA-CD format has been very spotty in their BD players; LG has never supported DVD-A at all.
With that sketchy format support context in 4K UHD BD players in mind, I'm obsessing over how things might turn: Say, two years from now if Sony stops supporting DVD-A in their 4K (and 1080, assuming they're still even making those) BD players, our DVD-A choices might be limited to Pioneer or . . .
. . . going back to an old DVD player that supports DVD-A. This dates back to a time when HDMI didn't pass high rez SA-CD and DVD-A.
I'm again in the market for an AVR and it struck me as ironic that I might need to make sure it includes analog multichannel inputs for the sake of "back to the future past" proofing.
The other choices for DVD-A are an old Oppo player (my old BDP-83 passes 192kHz from the coax digital out - I generally don't do disc playback but it is there if I have a hi-rez Blu-Ray and want to listen to hi-rez 2-channel via my DAC) or to rip them. One of the many reasons I ended up with file playback.
As far as recent hi-rez:
Carmen Gomes Inc. - "Don't You Cry" 24/352 download
El Vuelo - "Afro Cuban Latin Jazz Project" 24/96 DVD-A
Sony has had two models with UHD and DVD-A support, the UBP-X800 and UBP-X1000ES, I have both. I did see an announcement that Sony will release the UBP-X800M2, not sure that will actually happen but it may, biggest difference is it adds Dolby Vision support if it does happen.
Sony's first DVD-A player was the UHP-H1 without UHD Blu-ray.
Recent high resolution disc purchases:
The Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring-Complete Recordings 3CD & 1 DVD-A
The Beatles – Sgt. Pepper's 50th An. Box 4CD & 1 Blu-ray
All of Sony's UHD players support SACD. The UBP-X700 is a bit of a head scratcher, though. It is significantly less expensive than the X800, adds Dolby Vision yet does not support DVD-A and does not have bluetooth headphone capability.
Thanks, gents. I'm aware of Sony's current UHD BD player offerings. It's their history I'm looking at as a point of departure to speculate about the future.
If the company can't even consistently support SA-CD (and I'm referring to the totality of their player output since the beginning of the "BD era," not just their current UHD BD player lineup), then that's reason to question whether--again, say, two years from now--they may drop it again. Or only include it as a premium feature in the "top of the line" deck (which is what my understanding Sammy looked at--making a premium-priced UHD BD deck only, and they decided against that). And if there's precedent for that dodgy/less-than-ideal support in the past for a format from which they derive intellectual property revenue, it arguably makes the ground under their current support of DVD-A even less reliable. (Per Todd, even their current UHD BD players don't ALL support DVD-A.)
Phil, have you looked at OPPO player prices on Amazon recently? They start at about $400, going all the way up to $1100 for the 203. I'm glad I have a 203 and I spent a couple weeks going back and forth last year about buying a second one before they were no longer available directly from OPPO (decided not to). The current calculus for me has it not penciling out to spend that on a pre-owned deck with no warranty, if those decks are even still available 18 months to three years from now. (And that's before we get into the huge question mark hovering over even more expensive things I'm pondering, like whether OLEDs will ever reach 80-plus inches and cost less than $6k.)
Tryna keep enjoying the music all the while though. Inspired by seeing/hearing Aaron Diehl perform a more jazzy, improvisational piano than I'd ever heard to accompany the LA Phil's doing "Rhapsody In Blue" the weekend before last, I pulled my Pittsburgh Symphony Philips CD off the shelf to listen to that popular recording. Conducted from the piano by . . .
. . . Andre Previn. Rest in music, maestro.
Paul - have not followed the pricing closely but knew they were up there. I actually was considering selling mine (and might - it's not that I don't like it - I just don't have use for all its capabilities - it's that way with all of my Oppos which have always been primarily just for video). I have a whole 9 UHD discs. My Sony 4k TV is also my back-up 3D system (my Epson 5030 projector in the main system is used for that primarily). So I've probably watched a few of the UHD disc a couple of times, a couple of 3D movies on it and a couple of DVDs and used it a couple of times for probably a couple of hours to demo playing audio files from the NAS at a get together running my various systems (compared to my others systems for playing files from my NAS, the 203 is way down on the chain as far as quality vs the other systems I have). So the 203 sees very little use. I have two 103Ds as well as a modded 83, a 93 and an old DV980h. When I got the 203 I moved the 103D to my bedroom and the 93 to the upstairs bonus room, which basically is a guest room so it almost never gets used.
My main system has a Lumin U1 music server (http://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-u1.html - pic of the main system below). My PC system (where I run JRiver) has nice speakers power by a NuPrime IDA-8 integrated/DAC (https://nuprimeaudio.com/product/ida-8/?v=7516fd43adaa). I have another two channel system where I have a Windows 10 music server (running JRiver) with a Hegel H190 Integrated/DAC (https://www.hegel.com/products/integrated/h190) and another where I use a Windows 10 music server (running JRiver) and a Teac UD-501 DAC. The system where the 203 resides is basically just for 4K and I don't buy all that many movies at this point and just have the 9 UHD discs and probably won't get more than 2-4 the rest of this whole year. I actually did contemplate briefly buying a second 203 as well. My UHD TV is 55 inches (just site 7 feet away) and when another TV goes, I'd rotate the TV somewhere and perhaps get a 65 or a hair bigger. I do use the UHD TV, particularly during the NFL season and some other sporting events. For all that the 203 does it is great as are the old Oppo players. Just that I don't use all those capabilities. I use the main system 95% of the time for 2-channel audio even though I have 11 channels.
I think the UBP-X700 is probably a nice player but I don't have any first hand knowledge. I don't know how much extra it would have cost to add DVD-A and Bluetooth but I assume Sony wanted a less expensive player to compete with LG, Samsung and others. What I do know is that DVD-A is a tiny niche market and whatever it would have cost may not have been worth it, the added cost would have made it harder to sell to the market that doesn't care about DVD-A.
It would be foolish in my opinion for Sony to include SACD with all Blu-ray players when such a small percentage of the market needs SACD. Sony doesn't own all of the licensing revenue for SACD, it is shared with Philips and others and any incremental cost would be material to the profit margin on each player. Sony has done a good job of having enough models with SACD to adequately handle the market, I am surprised the number of Blu-ray, DVD and CD players with SACD support has been as great as it is.
I'm less than interested in derailing the thread with this topic, Chris, but I tend to disagree with your analysis regarding Sony's P & L about which frankly neither of us know the hard numbers. More importantly, we get into dangerous waters when one starts representing opinions as factual info (". . . the added cost [of DVD-A] would have made it harder to sell . . ." [How? Just include it and those of us who know what it is can note inclusion of that feature that most everyone else will simply ignore.]; "Sony has done a good enough job of having enough models to adequately handle the market . . ."). "[A]dequately"? Really?
And frankly, I've grown really tired over the years of this position. It's had less and less traction as the years have passed and costs have dropped as usual in consumer electronics as the "hot" premium feature becomes standard. At this point in time--some 18 years after the introduction of the format--I tend to question the idea that that the inclusion of DVD-A capability in the SoC of a player inherently pushes the cost beyond where it pencils out. That's akin to Netflix' ongoing position that the justification for charging their disc customers a premium for "Blu-ray access" is because BDs are more expensive to manufacture. Gimme freakin' break.
I get it: You're apparently a Sony fan. And you're responding with your opinions about Sony's players over the years. The problem is that we're getting into the weeds here: What you're saying is a sidebar matter and incidental/not really responsive to the central personal dilemma and question for other enthusiasts that made me bring up the larger subject in the first place. I'm posing a future scenario as a way to ask others who are enthusiastic about the format what they might do if such a scenario comes to bear. How many DVD-As do you own?
You cherrypick quote (ignoring many things that are more central to what I'm wanting to discuss, from the price of used OPPO players to how Previn's death points up for me the importance of enjoying the music despite these frustrations) my post in which I clarify my goal and inquiry after your somewhat misguided reply from yesterday, but then promptly proceed to ignore that clarification and reply with even more defense of Sony's "honor." Sheesh. If you can't responsively reply, then perhaps just don't quote my post and respond at all please? My goal wasn't to get into a back and forth about Sony's past SA-CD support; rather, it was to query other members about what they might do given the possibility of Sony's abandoning DVD-A support in the future.
You're responding with what I read to be defensiveness about the manufacturer. The reason I posted the musings in a high rez packaged media format thread is to hopefully avoid this kind of response, which I've unfortunately received many times in the past from, say, OPPObrats in player threads. You're not illuminating the possible future, you're just largely defending mostly one element of one manufacturer's past. Again, really tiresome.
Also: When did I make the argument that Sony should "include SACD with all Blu-ray players"? You're honing in on something I didn't say and strawmanning in reply. What I posited is that we can look at Sony's inconsistent support of SA-CD in many of their players (including the player I'm looking at in my living room right now) and thereby have concerns about what that might indicate about DVD-A prospects for the future.
IF Sony drops DVD-A support in the FUTURE what might others such as myself with a not insignificant DVD-A library do as far as a player purchase is concerned? How might that influence a current AVR purchase when part of the ramifications of Sony DVD-A abandonment would mean buying a DVD-A-capable DVD player, dating back to a time when HDMI did not support the high rez music formats? Why are you going on about Sony's "adequate" SA-CD support in the PAST? It's like a "Leave Britney alone!" moment you're having.
Goddess I love the serendipity of cruising through my Amazon Wish List or otherwise finding out something that was either out of my budget or not available has become within reach. I love this wonderful video the Phil posted yesterday in honor of (WDCH architect) Frank Gehry's 90th birthday (don't think you'll be able to access it here if you're not a Facebooker):
It inspired me to go looking for Brahms symphonies and I randomly saw that the Chailly Gewandhausorchester BD-A of all four had become available again:
From that line of "HFPA" BDs that UMG is not doing anymore. Have had my eye on it for over a year. $23. Bought it.
One good thing about Oppo players, particularly the older ones, which at one time I used before I got into file playback, is that they can pass full resolution of DVD-A via the coax digital output. I'm talking about something like my old BDP-83. I have a (solid state) modded one, I keep in the main system in case I want to play a hi-rez Blu-Ray (in addition if someone brings a CD over) and take the output to my DAC. There's some info about it here - http://everythingaudionetwork.blogspot.com/2013/01/audiophile-review-oppo-bdp-105.html
At one Capital Audiofest (when I lived in the DC area), Integra was exhibiting and I found out there were blowing out their DPS6.9 DVD universal player. I looked at the manual and it talked about being able to get 176kHz via an HDMI audio de-embedder (which I used at the time to take hi-rez out of my Oppo into my DAC in pre-file playback times). I grabbed one and ran it over to John Gatski's house (of Everything Audio Network) as he had an expesive A/D and Sample Rate Converter that would show word length. Yes I got 176kHz from the Integra but it truncated the word length from 24 bits to 16. Sounded good though. I believe my old Sony 370 (collecting dust in the bedroom system for quite a bit as I have an Oppo 103D in there if I decide to watch a movie) did a similar thing. Oppo was probably the only player (I'm aware of and the same goes for John Gatski who tested things) that allowed 24 bits to pass via an HDMI audio de-embedder (and they are not expensive - except a nut like me had to have an upgraded power supply for it). I'd take 24/88.2 from SACDs and full bandwidth from DVD-As and run it into my DAC. Had a Bryston BDA-1 back then and then briefly a Meitner MA-1 as I started getting into file playback.