What DVD's (if any) have genuine DIRECTIONAL DIALOG? (1 Viewer)

[Douglas R]

Directional sound was created post production, not on the set. I suppose you could say that directional dialogue was a failure in the sense that it did not last many years but on that basis stereo sound was also a failure at that time because after the '50s it was rarely used except for road show presentations until the advent of Dolby sound. But the failure seems to have been largely due to exhibitor intransigence because theatre owners did not want to pay for the new sound systems. It has been said that some people found directional dialogue distracting but it must be remembered that few people in the early '50s had ever heard stereo sound - it was something they were not used to, so it was probably more a question of unfamiliarity.

I saw many of the big 70mm road show presentations and they sounded great with directional dialogue, giving a hightened sense of realism and I've always regreted that it has not lasted. Certainly, in the home you really need a large widescreen TV for it to sound right.

In reply to Dick, the DVDs of It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad, World and Cleopatra both have directional dialogue although I believe the dialogue has been drawn more toward the center in both discs compared to the original theatrical versions. Unfortunately for How the West Was Won the dialogue has been drawn right into the centre channel.

 

[Joe Caps]

Almost all of the Fox Scope films have directional dialogue that was recorded with three mikes on the set. Other studios used one mike and panned the sound in the remix.
One Fox film, Affair to remember does not have stereo dialogue. I suspect this was meant to be a mono film and fox changed their minds after the fact.
The laserdisc had beautiful stereo sound. Both dVDs have terrible sound = really horendous.
Warner and Columbia films in the fifties had very little directional dialogue. I suspect it wa so these films could also be shown in 1:85 with stereo. Indeed, look at the columbia films and everything is pretty centered (including credits) in the 1:85 area within the scope frame.
Films shot in Todd AO have stereo dialogue.
Mixes within the same stero vary wildly. Many Warner films have mostly just music in stereo - very little stereo effects.
They vary in the same year. Warners did two major films in stereo in 1957. Sayonara is in three track with no surrounds. All the dialogue and effects are mono and only the music is stereo. Later that year, same studio, same sound engineer, even same composer(Waxman) warners does spirit of st. Louis - mono dialogue but a massive ammount of stereo effects and surrounds.
When aI remixed Picnic (1956) for stereo, it was mixed like a Fox film with wide effects and stero dialogue. A stereo print of the film could not be located at the time. My mix is on the dVD also.
Later a stereo print was found but it was mono dialgue and effects so the film could also be run in 1:85 with no offscreen dialogue.
What UA did is not known = veyr few stereo prints survive of UA material from this era. The only one I've seen is Gentlemen Marry Brunettes.
Listening for surrounds from this era can be frustrating because the studios used very little surrounds, even for musicals where one would like the orchestra in the songs on the surrounds. Todd AO used ALL of the score on the surrounds for their mixes so when gets orchestra on surrounds for Oklahoma, south Pacific, Sound of Music. We do NOT get orchon surrounds during Carousel but we do on the dvd of King and I - I get the feeling tht htis is NOT the original mix but a remix done in tandem with the limited edition soundtrack cD that came with the laser. fox just did NOT mix this way.
One listens to early Fox scope films expecting a feast of surrounds but there is very little. The Robe has very few moments as does Demetrius and the Gladiators and the Egyptian, but theres not much. Doug Williams who recorde many of the fox scores and was in on the mixing said that fox did NOT record separate surrounds until they did South Pacific in 58. Most other fox surrounds are stuff from the front channels bumped on to the surrounds at certain moments. Foxs had done a compelte stereo mix (three front channels ) of The Robe. and played it for Darryl Zanuck. He said "Fine, but wheres the surrounds" they asked him what the hell that was. No one had toldd the Fox s0ound engineers anything about surround sound!! so they puled stuff from the fron channels at selected moments and bumpedit into the rear.

 

[Wayne Bundrick]

Exactly. I was at a loss for words for describing that type of scene where the camera cuts between multiple shots of two or more characters having a conversation.

Something else that has to be considered is the practical use of the surround channels as they exist in theaters. In a theater each surround channel is reproduced by multiple speakers along the walls. This limits their directionality. You get the general perception of sound coming from either side or the rear, but not a pinpoint direction. That's not good for dialog because it sounds "disembodied", so its use is limited to scenes where a disembodied, unable-to-locate voice is the exact effect the filmmaker is trying to achieve. For a current example, in Return of the King when Gollum abandons Frodo in Shelob's lair.

 

[Eric Eash]

i think the new SWAT dvd might have some in it, i'll have to check again after work. i know there were some good directional sounds in it, especially one knock on a door that came from the right front channel, i swear i thought someone was knocking on my bedroom door which is close to that speaker. the funny thing is, my dog thought the same thing.

eric

 

[CraigL]

Finding Nemo is great for this. I've noticed it the 3 times I've watched it. Stands out in my collection for that reason.

 

[TedD]

I don't believe anyone is talking about using surround channels, as they were never used for directional dialog in the early CinemaScope films.

We are discussing the use of the front left, center, and right channels as was used in most, if not all of the early CinemaScope films featuring 4 track magnetic sound.

BTW, the surround channel was always mono for the CinemaScope 35mm 4 track mag releases, and could not have been used for anything more than general ambiance, choral music, sound effects, etc.

Ted

 

[Matt_P]

Both The Patriot and The 13th Warrior have quite a bit of directional dialogue (especially in the surrounds).

 

[GregK]

It seems during the Dolby Surround matrix LD era, there were more than a few occasions where vintage directional dialog mixes were toed in or worse, completely monoized. Once AC-3 (now known as Dolby Digital) LDs and then DD DVDs came about, some of those 'tweaks' were bypassed when the discrete audio tracks were directly ported over as a Dolby Digital 3.0, 4.0, 4.1 or 5.1 mix. Of course if a movie has been completely remixed for 5.1 from the ground up, chances are the dialog is now "centered". The exception to this one is the new 5.1 mix for "Ben Hur".

The last (non-animated) major film that I am aware of that was originally mixed with aggressive directional dialog was "Logan's Run" in 1976. And the DD 5.1 DVD faithfully reproduces this mix. The original Star-Trek TMP and Superman audio mixes had a few instances of directional dialog, but were not nearly as aggressive as this one. Ditto for Indiana Jones TOD, although it was used quite nicely for the opening title credit.

Somewhat echoing what Joe stated previously, for the 1950s/60s as a rough rule of thumb, most of the Fox Cinemascope, Todd-AO and Cinerama films had directional dialog. The "How the West Was Won" DVD audio is a disgrace, as the original multi-channel discrete audio is not even provided. Instead it is an old 2-channel Dolby Surround downmix.

 

[CraigF]

The Wind and the Lion has some, the directional panning from side to centre is very uneven though.

 

[PS Nystrom]

Mission to Mars
Josie and the Pussycats

 

[chris_clem]

This is kinda off topic since a lot of you are discussing old movies but I would like to share this little tidbit. I am not a big Anime fan but I do have one series on DVD called Initial D. I got it just for the heck of it one day and I noticed that the dialog on this was extremely directional! For the whole series of episodes voices would literally jump or pan from speaker to speaker depending on where the characters were relative to the onscreen perspective (bear in mind that this a 5.1 DD mix so directional dialogue from the rears happened all the time). I found this to be cool in a gimmicky sort of way at first but it would be annoying to hear this type of mix often as it is very distracting. (For the Anime fans out there, is this the norm for modern Anime mixes or is this series an exception in that regard?)

 

[Jason Adams]

I do know for a fact that the Cleopatra DVD has directional dialogue. Very agressively mixed. Directional dialog makes more sense to me aurally, because I think a soundtrack should be similar to what one really hears.

 

[Robert Harris]

I fear that we're getting into a mix of apples and oranges with a discussion of directional dialogue.

Home theatre environments are not the same as theatrical situations, and the sound is best handled in a slightly different manner.

Stereo mixes created during the two decades between the mid-1950s and the mid 70s were predicated upon anywhere from three to seven channels of discreet monaual information being fed to specific speaker locations.

What we currently refer to "surround" channels were not used as such during that period. Their purpose was the addition of a specific, and generally short, effect.

For example, as Lawrence sings The Man Who Broke the Bank at Monte Carlo at the end of reel two in Lawrence of Arabia, the echoes of his voice were heard in the effects channel, which was channel four of the original master (which was three channel plus effect) and channel six of the 70mm mix.

For 70mm prints of LoA, channels two and four were phantom mixes of one and three, and three and five so that audio would be spread evenly across the huge screens in use at that time.

Directional dialogue in a film like LoA was less obvious.

Spartacus, on the other hand, was a full six channel discreet mix, with dialogue, effects and music all mixed as composite information in each of the six channels.

Also created to be used in large theatres, a character walking from the far screen left to far right, would have their voice move with them.

Characters slightly off screen would be balanced to be heard in only channels one and two, or one alone (far left).

Which means that, with specificity, there was different information designed to come from each of the five screen channels at different times.

One of the few films to use full directional dialogue, which can still be heard today in its original mix in a proper theatrical setting, is Williamsburg: The Story of a Patriot, which can be viewed free at the Visitor's Center in Colonial Williamsburg, VA.

One of the earliest surviving Todd-AO mixes in full discreet audio, Patriot is so discreet as to allow channel movement with the simple turning of a character's head.

Therefore, if five characters are on screen, all with dialogue, each will have their dialogue centered around their screen position.

If a character is in screen position four, ie. right center in a left, left center, center, right center and right layout, the degree of audio from each of the channels will be based upon not only their position on screen, but the position of their head as to the direction in which they are speaking.

Meaning that the character in right center position will probably have no dialogue in the far left, virtually none in the left center channel, but would have some audio in center and right, with full audio in right center.

The problem in bringing this to home theatre is three-fold.

1. Home theatres are generally a bit smaller than the sixty or seventy foot wide by thirty foot high screens in theatres.

2. Home theatres do not have the capability to properly capture the information held in discreet channels two and four, which must be handled as "phantom" channels with non-discreet information.

3. Since most home theatres do not have speakers located behind the screen, but rather, mounted at far left and right of the actual viewing surface, any discreet dialogue which may have been used for channels one and five would now be coming from off-screen, and not as intended.

It is for these reasons, that for both home theatre environments, as well as many modern theatres, which also may not have full frequency speakers mounted in positions two and four, that dialogue is toed in toward center in an effort to create a more pleasing and realistic listening environment.

As a point of reference, the audio for the reconstruction and restoration of Spartacus was recorded twice.

First in the original full six track discreet mode to properly preserve the original audio and second, in a more accessible, more centered version for newer theatres which could no longer play the original mix.

The first release of the Spartacus DVD used the more centered audio, while for the newer Criterion release, we re-mixed the full discreet to work (as well as possible) with 5.1.

While films such as The Alamo had full six channel Todd mixes with fully discreet dialogue, many 35mm four track productions had a lesser degree of dialogue separation as they did not have the two additional channels to carry the information.

This is not to say that four track mixes did not have directional dialogue, but it was simply less obvious when compared to a fully discreet five channels behind the screen.

If one is traveling on the east coast around the Washington, DC area, it is worth the 90 minute trip to spend some time in Colonial Williamsburg. The new restoration of Patriot will be on screen some time in 2004, with newly cleaned audio.

Anyone who has not heard true directional dialogue will find the experience most enlightening.

As an aside, Patriot was the only VistaVision production to be created with full six channel audio. That audio was magnetically printed to the Vista prints, which ran in the original format for a decade or so, before being converted to 70mm. As I recall, the screen is approximately 28 feet high by 56 wide.

What this meant for the audio, was that the magnetic information was whisked past the sound heads at 180 feet per minute, hence Paramount's terminology of "Motion Picture High Fidelity."

Hope this is helpful.

RAH

 

[RolandL]

I know I am in the minority but, I do enjoy hearing directional dialogue in my home theatre. I have a Piano DLP projector and three Definitive BP6B tower speakers below the screen and two Definitive BP2X surround speakers on the sides. The directional dialog sounds fine in this setup. It's not that expensive with the Piano projector only $1300,
the DP6B's are $300 each and the BP2X $500 a pair.

 

[Dick]

Mr. Harris: Many thanks for your reponse to my post (many thanks to everyone else who replied, also!). I actually am a reasonably knowledgable film fan and collector, but I feel like a neophyte compared to many in this forum. Your wealth of information overwhelms me! But I love it, and appreciate the time it takes for people with knowledge to share it with the rest of us.

 

[Jonathan Dagmar]

I dont understand why some people who do not have "front projectors" or speakers behind the screen are so down on directional dialog. I finally had the pleasure of hearing the occasional direcional dialog in Temple of Doom, and was pleasntly surprised at how natural it was. Even though my speakers are about 16 inches away from each side of my display, the dialog never seemed to be coming from anywhere but the screen.

Directonal dialog is a good thing in my book.

 

[David Yevin]

just to add another title, the new 5.1 mix of the escape from new york SE has some directional dialog...