Westworld (HBO) (1 Viewer)

[Walter Kittel]

More questions and more religion in this episode.

What is Ford up to? He mentioned Gods in his conversation with Theresa at the restaurant and he seemed to exhibit almost God-like control over the environment of that section of the park.

Was the Indian religion of those that walk between the worlds something that was improvised to account for the presence of the maintenance workers in the park?

We see the suffering of the hosts and the indifference of Ford to their plight. Commentary on the suffering of the innocent in our world? (Which raises the ethical question of what obligations does a creator have to its creations, if any?)

I am going to assume that the hosts have protocols that render them incapable of comprehending references by the guests to their status as robots. William refers to Dolores as a robot during his dialog with Logan when they are arguing about which path to take on their adventure. (Deliberately managed cognitive dissonance programmed into the hosts, in reference to the title of the episode Dissonance Theory?)

On the related topic of religion, I liken the hosts and their loops to the labors of Sisyphus; forever consigned to repeat labors of futility.

- Walter.

 

[JohnS]

After episode four I'm even more convinced Bernard is A.I.
And this episode four spilled out a lot of information.

Walter,
And not just mentioning "robots" but also mention of "game".
There's definite programming to the robots for when the guests interact with them when it comes to comprehending something from the guests.

 

[John Lee_275604]

After episode four I'm even more convinced Bernard is A.I.

We definitely had another reference by Ford to his disposition. Only time will tell if Ford feels humans have innate dispositions, or if he's referring to Bernard's programming.

 

[Walter Kittel]

After episode four I'm even more convinced Bernard is A.I.

Perhaps, but I'm not so certain. If Bernard is an A.I., Ford's concern for him (as evidenced in the conversation with Theresa) seems uncharacteristic given his unsentimental views of the hosts that inhabit the park. I could be misreading the conversation with Theresa; maybe the concern if for her and not Bernard. I should revisit that scene. Of course, Bernard could be the exception to the rule for Ford. Who knows? Regardless, it is a fascinating series.

- Walter.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

I am up-to-date on this show. I find it interesting and entertaining. Not sure I am "Wow'd" by it at all, though.

I am really lost by some of the storyline.

Let me explain...

It seems like Ed Harris' character is out to find the secret of the park. How is he advancing this far (scalping robots) without one of the "overseers" catching on and stopping him? Or, is this part of the game of the park itself?

....and, there are robots who are giving clues, such as the little girl who lost her family or the tattoo woman. Have they totally gone renegade?

 

[TonyD]

I think someone mentioned it earlier, MiB(Harris) is essentially and Elite member of the Park. A VIP basically.
He seems to have a special "game" just for him. So he gets different reactions from some of the robots that regular guests won't get.

The park runners are aware of him as we saw tis episode and in one instance in a previous episode.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Tony,

That part I understand. I did pick up that he was a VIP guest.

However, is he undermining the park or is he playing a game that the overseers are aware of?

It seems that the storyline for him and Dolores is pointing to a "Maze"

I am not sure that is something the park people want discovered.

 

[Josh Dial]

Tony,

That part I understand. I did pick up that he was a VIP guest.

However, is he undermining the park or is he playing a game that the overseers are aware of?

It seems that the storyline for him and Dolores is pointing to a "Maze"

I am not sure that is something the park people want discovered.

The Man in Black's goal has not yet been revealed--the show has actually been pretty good at giving out hints and answering questions, so I think there's a decent chance we learn his goal (and motivation) before the season's end.

Based on what we've seen so far, I would theorize that "the maze" is both literal (in the sense it's a puzzle to be solved) and figurative (in the sense there's an intended path of evolution to be followed). Again, this is only my theory, based on a careful viewing of four episodes, but at this point I think back in the early days of the park's design (thirty years ago), Arnold and Dr. Ford had diverging views of humanity and the park's utility. Arnold and Dr. Ford also had a difference of opinion when it came to the design of the hosts. Arnold wanted to create consciousness, not just the appearance; it seems Dr. Ford is happy with just a really well designed AI.

My guess is that buried in the hosts' programming is Arnold's "maze." Think of it like an evolution of the Turing test--if a host learns of the maze and successfully solves it, it will be proof positive that the host has achieved true consciousness. Alternatively, there could be a "reward" at the end in the form of code created by Arnold that "unlocks" a worthy host's consciousness.

We know from episode four that the Man in Black is real (and not a host) and that he is apparently the head of a large corporation who saves lives somehow. Maybe it's a medical technology company, maybe it's a pharmaceutical company, we don't know at this point. However, it's clear that the Man in Black has learned about the maze and wants to solve it. He was told in episode three that the maze is "not for [him]," which I take to mean it is for hosts, not guests. Also recall episode one, during the shootout at the homestead, one of the hosts was pouring the milk onto other dead hosts, telling the guests the milk was not for them. The milk is mean to symbolize the white substance in which we've seen the hosts being created--it's their essence if you will. This host was attempting to give life back to the dead hosts. Perhaps this is one sign a host is on the path to consciousness?

We don't know what the Man in Black wants to gain by solving the maze. Maybe he can use the solution in the outside world (for his company? for the public good?). Alternatively, maybe solving the maze will reveal the truth behind how and why Arnold died, as remember Devos has effectively scrubbed Arnold's existence from the records. Maybe the Man in Black was friends or family with Arnold, and maybe he thinks (and we'll learn) that Arnold's death was suspicious. Maybe Dr. Ford or Devos murdered Arnold, and the Man in Black thinks solving the maze will solve the murder. We don't know yet, but these are all possibilities at this point (among others).

So, we have the Man in Black trying to solve the maze, which was maybe planted by Arnold as a "next step" in the evolution of the hosts.

On to Bernard and Dolores and Maeve. Bernard has now put Dolores on the path of the maze; it seems Maeve has come upon it organically (pardon the pun). We haven't actually been shown how Bernard learned about the maze, but he knows. Perhaps Bernard is sees a bit of Arnold in himself--he is, after all, close to the hosts, and from his conversations with Dolores, appears to be curious about the hosts' nature. Maybe Bernard thinks Dolores is "ready" for the maze.

Will this bring Bernard and Dr. Ford into conflict? That remains to be seen.

Lastly, there's another interesting possibility, which is that both Dr. Ford and Arnold designed the maze together, as sort of a bargain between the two. Arnold thought the hosts would solve the maze first, and "win," effectively proving Arnold correct that hosts could be just like humans. Dr. Ford thought the hosts would never solve the maze, or that at least a human would solve the maze first, thus proving humanity's superiority.

Anyway, these are just all my theories, based on little more than watching the first four episodes. I'm sure I have everything wrong, but it sure is fun to watch! The good news is we actually are learning a lot each episode--the show isn't creating mystery for mystery's sake and holding back answers like other shows. Nolan has generated enough goodwill that I'm willing to give him and his team the benefit of the doubt and say that they have answers (and aren't just making it up as they go along).

Great show. Best new show of 2016 in my opinion.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Josh,

That was an incredible read. Thank you for taking the time to explain all of that in such a detailed manner.

I learned everything I needed to lean. I feel as if I have such a better understanding of the show now.

Thank You!!!!!

 

[Walter Kittel]

I kind of like the idea of a 'competition' to see whether organic or artificial life can solve the riddle of the 'maze' first. Definitely ties into the 'gamer' aspects of the park / show.

I'll throw another theory out there, which is sort of an inkling of an idea. We know that the MiB is wealthy and the head of a large foundation in the real world. It seems logical that as technology advances the 1% will attempt to achieve immortality of a sort. Perhaps the MiB's goals have to do with preserving his consciousness via the technology of the park and the hidden purpose of the park ties into that (at least theoretical) objective. Nothing to really back that up that theory, other than the question - what aren't the ultra wealthy able to possess? Of course this presupposes that other avenues in the world don't exist in pursuance of this goal which does seem unlikely. Fun to speculate though.

- Walter.

 

[Sam Favate]

I've just caught up with episode 4. The show shows some incredible production values and has an outstanding cast. It poses some interesting questions. But that's where it ends for me, and here's why:

The show is weighed down by its overwhelming sense of mystery. The writers have given every bit of the show the potential to have such deeper meaning but haven't articulated anything as yet. It's beyond confounding.

Also, the show has committed the worst sin a program or a movie can: It doesn't make me feel anything. Not for the characters, and certainly not for the story, since I have no idea what the stakes are, even four hours in. There may yet be a payoff, but 10 hours is a hell of an investment to get one moment of emotional resonance.

 

[Walter Kittel]

Also, the show has committed the worst sin a program or a movie can: It doesn't make me feel anything. Not for the characters, and certainly not for the story, since I have no idea what the stakes are, even four hours in. There may yet be a payoff, but 10 hours is a hell of an investment to get one moment of emotional resonance.

No sympathy for Dolores who is consigned to an awful fate at the end of most of her days? No empathy for entities that might be on the cusp of self awareness that are just the playthings of the elite? Not meant as a personal critique; but we'll just have to disagree that the hosts and their situations don't generate some emotional resonance.

- Walter.

 

[TravisR]

No sympathy for Dolores who is consigned to an awful fate at the end of most of her days? No empathy for entities that might be on the cusp of self awareness that are just the playthings of the elite?

If there's any characters I care about, it's the robots but since they keep getting fixed with, up until now, no memory of what's happened, it diminishes any concern I have for them because they're freed from those horrible memories.

My biggest problem with the show is that it moves slower than a snail. It's nearly halfway through the season and nothing has happened that I didn't know would happen from the first episode. It looks great and the cast is top notch but I keep waiting for anything to happen.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Travis, you hit the nail on the head for why I'm not a big fan of HBO shows in general - they all seem to have pacing issues. I think at least part of it is format. The traditional four act plus teaser structure for hour long dramas still works. HBO shows don't have to take commercial breaks and run longer, and the pacing never feels right to me. I'm enjoying Westworld more than I thought I would but I think the pacing is still an issue.

Theory of the moment: some robots are on a journey to a maze (metaphorical or otherwise) where the prize might be freedom, or perhaps true consciousness. The Man In Black wants to find a version of the park that's more real, where actions have consequences and it's possible to die. I can imagine a season finale where both of these things happens. Perhaps Delores (or someone else) succeeds and as a result, and is able to fatally wound The Man In Black, thus giving him what he wants too, albeit not in the manner he expected.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Josh,

Nail on the head is right. The show is already starting to drag and there are....what?.....6 or 7 more seasons?

I can't see much of anything getting resolved quickly. We may have another LOST on our hands.

 

[TravisR]

I can't see much of anything getting resolved quickly. We may have another LOST on our hands.

To be fair, Lost had mysteries that were intended to run the course of the series but there were also plenty of mysteries that were presented and resolved within a few episodes or within the same season. If Lost had run as slow as Westworld is, the characters wouldn't have even figured out that they were on a mysterious island until half way through the first season and there'd have been one character's flashback.

EDIT: I'm certainly planning on sticking with Westworld because, despite my criticisms, I still think there's good stuff about it. I'm guessing that we haven't seen any of the episodes that came after HBO shut down production so maybe those upcoming episodes will pick up the pace.

 

[Sam Favate]

I can't see much of anything getting resolved quickly. We may have another LOST on our hands.

That's exactly what I am afraid of. After six seasons of Lost and so many other shows that never satisfactorily resolved countless mysteries, I am reluctant to invest in yet another show that looks poised to do the same.

 

[TravisR]

nevermind- a topic better for another thread

 

[Walter Kittel]

[nevermind]

Back to Westworld. I keep reading this criticism that the show has a slow pace, or that it isn't going anywhere and I have to completely disagree. Shows like Westworld require setup and we have already learned quite a bit. Mystery box shows aren't about instant gratification.

- Walter.

 

[Josh Dial]

The traditional four act plus teaser structure for hour long dramas still works.

I must respectfully disagree with my Josh doppelganger (Dark Josh?). I think the four act structure--at least as it is used in shows on the major networks (CBS, NBC, FOX, and ABC)--is often ironically full of bloat, needless exposition, and melodrama. Worst of all, most shows don't give the audience enough credit (or any credit!) and handhold and explain everything. Not all of this is a product of the format, but some of it is. There is always an audience surrogate asking questions that they would never ask. Characters constantly describe aloud what they are doing and why they are doing it. This is lazy writing at its mos basic, and only serves to make sure the audience doesn't have to think for itself at any time. This is often exacerbated by the four act structure, with cliffhangers at the end of each act--many of which aren't really cliffhangers--and then a bunch of expository dialogue at the start of the next act (after it's revealed that the cliffhanger was lame). The shows have to make sure people remember what just happened less than five minutes ago!

Simply put, network shows, often as a byproduct of the four act structure, commit the mortal sin of telling, not showing.

Josh,

I can't see much of anything getting resolved quickly. We may have another LOST on our hands.

Westworld is already providing answers faster than did LOST. And on the subject of LOST, despite what many believe, LOST actually did answer all of its questions. I can't think of a single "mystery" for which an explanation wasn't provided. Seriously: not a single one!

As a further aside, baffling as it may be, there are a lot of people that still think everything was dead the whole time on LOST.