What's new

WEST SIDE STORY - OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE (1 Viewer)

Status
Not open for further replies.

David Mahlan

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jun 2, 2005
Messages
63
Mike Frezon said:
Joe: You need to read the posts in this thread a little more closely--especially mine.

Nowhere did I write that I believed the phrase was used in the film. Just that after listening, I could certainly understand why the OP started the thread. I wholeheartedly believe that it was a strange circumstance in the editing mix which has lead to the mondegreen which has been under discussion here.

And as for whether or not the anecdotes about the wives hearing the phrase are true, I was the first to write such an anecdote so I know for fact that at least one of the stories is true because I was there.
I agree on all three of your points, Mike. I was quite clear that I thought it was an unfortunate combination of overlapping phrases that sounded strikingly like the offending word - quite different from stating that the word was actually said.

While it tickles me that Joe suspects I'd use one of my relatively few posts on this forum to make up a story about my wife, I guess Joe is welcome to believe or disbelieve anything he reads on the Internet.

Speaking of the Internet, it's interesting to note that the original poster is not the first to "hear" the word in this scene. Kelly Oxford - who has not, as far as I know, participated in this thread and would not be predisposed to listen for the word - said that she heard it as well, and tweeted as such ... back in 2009.

https://twitter.com/kellyoxford/status/4115920237

If nothing else this would indicate that the sounds resembling the word c***sucker are not something that was a result of the mix done for the blu-ray release. At least one person thought she heard them several years earlier.
 

AnthonyClarke

Senior HTF Member
Deceased Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
2,767
Location
Woodend Victoria Australia
Real Name
Anthony
Joe Lugoff said:
No. In fact, this is a perfect example. You believe the anecdotes about the wives, but in reality, we have no way of knowing if the anecdotes are fictitious to prove a point. I'm not saying they are -- I'm saying we don't know.

If you don't listen closely, it vaguely resembles the offensive phrase. If you listen closely, it's obvious what's really being said. So even if the anecdotes are true, they don't mean anything in the face of that unpopular concept known as reality. It's much more exciting to think of lights in the sky as alien spacecraft as opposed to mundane things like planets, weather balloons, birds, etc.

But I'll tell you what. If it's really important to you that the phrase was said in WEST SIDE STORY, go for it, and enjoy yourself.
Well Joe, I tell you true. I called my wife in from another room, said 'listen to this and tell me what you heard'. That was the extent of our conversation. She heard what the first poster heard. So saying this was anecdotal is denying first-hand reportage, not hearsay. Or if you don't believe me, then you are beneath contempt since you are simply saying I'm a liar, with no evidence. I think we should be gentlemen enough here to believe the sort of plain statement I've given.
 

AnthonyClarke

Senior HTF Member
Deceased Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
2,767
Location
Woodend Victoria Australia
Real Name
Anthony
It strikes me that I may have been a little immoderate in my reaction to Joe's suggestion that I may well have fabricated my account of my wife listening to the posted wav file. If so, I will simply say that since my professional career has been based on public credibility, suggestions that I'd lie about something so minor is something I can't help but react to strongly. Joe may be fortunate in not having to worry about his reputation for veracity but it's something I've always held dear.
So I'm sorry if I seem to have reacted too strongly.
 

Doug Bull

Advanced Member
Joined
May 7, 2001
Messages
1,544
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Real Name
Doug Bull
Is it possible, if the offending words are actually there, that they may have existed on a stock crowd noise track which for some reason or other replaced the original at some later time?
Damaged? Poor quality? Mono original? a replacement is conceivable and if it came from a more recent film then who knows what language it contained.
The supposed offending voice is in the background and clearly not on the main voice track.

Just my thoughts.
Shoot me down if you wish.

"I'll swear I just heard it. I'm certain it was Leonardo DiCaprio who said it.
Is Wall street on the Westside? or is that another Story.


Doug.
 

RobertR

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Dec 19, 1998
Messages
10,675
This thread piqued my curiosity, so I listened to the wav file. I heard it both ways--the "punks" and the "cocksucker" line. What do I think is going on? Something similar to this picture:

1-37.gif


Is this a picture of a duck or a bunny? It just so happens that it's constructed so that it can be interpreted either way. Another example:

confuse.jpg


Is someone staring towards you or facing right?

As for what's "really" being said, a simple application of Occam's Razor should provide the answer--sounds just happened to come together in such a way that the brain can perceive the more offensive term, even though it was never intended.
 

Tino

Taken As Ballast
Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 19, 1999
Messages
23,575
Location
Metro NYC
Real Name
Valentino
Very amusing thread, inexcusable insults to members wives not withstanding. The offending ( or not offending ) word is clearly there...and also clearly not there. How's that? ;)
 

Vic Pardo

Screenwriter
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
1,520
Real Name
Brian Camp
Is there a comedy show on TV that could adapt this thread into an episode? If "Seinfeld" had run on pay cable, it might have worked. (Costanza: "I heard it! I distinctly heard 'c***sucker'!") Or "Curb Your Enthusiasm."
 

FoxyMulder

映画ファン
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
5,385
Location
Scotland
Real Name
Malcolm
RobertR said:
This thread piqued my curiosity, so I listened to the wav file. I heard it both ways--the "punks" and the "cocksucker" line. What do I think is going on? Something similar to this picture:

1-37.gif


Is this a picture of a duck or a bunny? It just so happens that it's constructed so that it can be interpreted either way. Another example:

confuse.jpg


Is someone staring towards you or facing right?

As for what's "really" being said, a simple application of Occam's Razor should provide the answer--sounds just happened to come together in such a way that the brain can perceive the more offensive term, even though it was never intended.
Excellent optical illusion, the ear gives it away, they are staring towards you.
 

John Maher_289910

Supporting Actor
Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
860
Real Name
John Maher
I just re-listened to the clip, 10 times in a row (and I feel like an idiot), and tried to hear the word, "cocksuckers", and couldn't. Even if I were to pretend that the punched delivery of "Punks" was "Cocks", there's no "uckers". It's just not there. Not to these ears, anyway. It was fun to type dirty words in a post, though.
 

FoxyMulder

映画ファン
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
5,385
Location
Scotland
Real Name
Malcolm
John Maher_289910 said:
I just re-listened to the clip, 10 times in a row (and I feel like an idiot), and tried to hear the word, "cocksuckers", and couldn't. Even if I were to pretend that the punched delivery of "Punks" was "Cocks", there's no "uckers". It's just not there. Not to these ears, anyway. It was fun to type dirty words in a post, though.
The c***suckers part comes before the punk part is said, listen to the first part of it from the beginning.
 

Paul Penna

Screenwriter
Joined
Aug 22, 2002
Messages
1,224
Real Name
Paul
Josh Steinberg said:
I'm hearing exactly what Paul Penna eloquently stated above. I hear two different voices, and overlapped, each contributes a sound that together could be easily mistaken for "cocksucker" ...
Actually, what I said was that the sounds I heard that might construed that way didn't come from the louder voice ("Break it up you punks, cut it out!"), but the lower-pitched one it partially overlapped. Emphasis on the "might."
 

Joe Lugoff

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
2,238
Real Name
Joe
AnthonyClarke said:
It strikes me that I may have been a little immoderate in my reaction to Joe's suggestion that I may well have fabricated my account of my wife listening to the posted wav file. If so, I will simply say that since my professional career has been based on public credibility, suggestions that I'd lie about something so minor is something I can't help but react to strongly. Joe may be fortunate in not having to worry about his reputation for veracity but it's something I've always held dear.
So I'm sorry if I seem to have reacted too strongly.
It's really incredible and so typical -- I said I'M NOT SAYING THEY ARE, I'm saying I don't know.

As the smartass expression goes, "What part of I'M NOT SAYING THEY ARE don't you understand?"

That's true of everything I read or hear, except from people I know really well. It's just a sad fact of life.

It's mind boggling how anyone would think, "Well, my wife heard it too" would be any kind of definitive statement one way or the other ON THE INTERNET.

OK, my wife DIDN'T hear it. Now what?
 

Mike Frezon

Moderator
Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2001
Messages
60,695
Location
Rexford, NY
Joe:

In my response to your post I said it was your prerogative to not believe my story about my wife hearing the offending phrase with no set-up discussion.

But if we aren't going to believe anything we read on the internet (because "it's not any kind of definitive statement"), what's the point of engaging in discussion threads on ANY topic?

For what it's worth (apparently not too much from your point of view), I believe you when you say your wife didn't hear it.

=================

Now what?

That's easy. Nothing's changed. It just isn't as cut and dry as you and others want to make it out to be. The OP of this thread was derisively mocked for positing a case that was deemed preposterous. As many others here have posted, much to their surprise they claim to have heard the offending phrase when they didn't think they would (as did some of our wives).

To me, those posts provide affirmation that the OP has a case: a situation that has been discussed here and probably solved with the simple explanation that it is a an audio edit which has resulted in a mondegreen. It's not too hard to understand, really. Some people hear it. Some don't.

But snarky, pointed attacks don't change that simple fact.
 

haineshisway

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
5,561
Location
Los Angeles
Real Name
Bruce
My wife didn't hear it either. Of course, I haven't seen my wife since 1982 when we were deevorced, save for the odd occasion or two, so there's that. And what kind of stupid word is mondegreen - that means green world.

Furthermore, I just watched all of West Side Story and I could swear that when Maria is singing I Feel Pretty that I heard "I feel pretty and witty and GAY." How could they allow a Lesbian inference in that song in 1961 - but it's there, I swear. I called my ex-wife and she heard it too, plain as day, which, BTW, rhymes with GAY. I think someone slipped that word in there when they remixed it, just to mess with our minds.

Then when the Dance at the Gym was playing I could swear I heard the trumpets play a three-note motif that sounded just like the word heard by the original poster - you know the one. I daren't post it here for fear of being bitch-slapped from here to eternity and hell and back. Listen to those trumpets - I'm telling you, there is some conspiracy going on here and I've written Fox to tell them of this profanity-laden Blu-ray, as well as the reference to homosexuality. I'm waiting for their response now. They told me "We'll check into it as soon as possible" and when they were saying that I could swear they really said "We'll check into it assh*le peckerwood." Something is going on here.
 

JohnMor

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Messages
5,157
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Real Name
John Moreland
Mike Frezon said:
The OP of this thread was derisively mocked for positing a case that was deemed preposterous. As many others here have posted, much to their surprise they claim to have heard the offending phrase when they didn't think they would (as did some of our wives).

To me, those posts provide affirmation that the OP has a case: a situation that has been discussed here and probably solved with the simple explanation that it is a an audio edit which has resulted in a mondegreen. It's not too hard to understand, really. Some people hear it. Some don't.
Except that that is NOT what the OP said, Mike. He made a definite statement that it was a deliberate addition of the word as a joke during the restoration, not a confluence of sounds that some one MIGHT interpret one way. Please see his posts below. In that regard, it really IS as simple as some of us are maintaining. People can hear that sound all they want, but the actual word is not deliberately spoken on the soundtrack, which is what he maintained.

cinerama10 said:
I have seen WEST SIDE STORY numerous times over the past 50 years,in 70mm,on stage and on dvd. Recently I rewatched the 50th anniversary bluray disc and was surprised at some of the words used by one of the characters.
In the opening scene when the Police arrive to stop the gangs from fighting,the first cop on the scene says " break it up you cock suckers". I have watched this scene over and over and the cop does indeed say what I claim. This sort of language was never allowed in films 50 years ago. Am I the only person who has discovered this? Maybe it was added by someone doing the restoration. I am pretty sure that the same words are repeated by the same character later in the movie. I will check it again and see where else it is repeated.
cinerama10 said:
It "doesn't sound like " the offensive words -it IS them. The split second pause before the words means that someone played a joke during the restoration. The is the sort of thing that has happened with animated films.
 

Mike Frezon

Moderator
Premium
Senior HTF Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2001
Messages
60,695
Location
Rexford, NY
John:

It was my belief that we had gotten past that original assertion here with our subsequent discussion of the situation (i.e. that the ill-heard phrase was the unfortunate unintentioned result of the audio edit).
 

cinerama10

Supporting Actor
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
603
Real Name
peter
haineshisway said:
My wife didn't hear it either. Of course, I haven't seen my wife since 1982 when we were deevorced, save for the odd occasion or two, so there's that. And what kind of stupid word is mondegreen - that means green world.

Furthermore, I just watched all of West Side Story and I could swear that when Maria is singing I Feel Pretty that I heard "I feel pretty and witty and GAY." How could they allow a Lesbian inference in that song in 1961 - but it's there, I swear. I called my ex-wife and she heard it too, plain as day, which, BTW, rhymes with GAY. I think someone slipped that word in there when they remixed it, just to mess with our minds.

Then when the Dance at the Gym was playing I could swear I heard the trumpets play a three-note motif that sounded just like the word heard by the original poster - you know the one. I daren't post it here for fear of being bitch-slapped from here to eternity and hell and back. Listen to those trumpets - I'm telling you, there is some conspiracy going on here and I've written Fox to tell them of this profanity-laden Blu-ray, as well as the reference to homosexuality. I'm waiting for their response now. They told me "We'll check into it as soon as possible" and when they were saying that I could swear they really said "We'll check into it assh*le peckerwood." Something is going on here.
The lyrics of the song 'I feel pretty' are the same as those that were sung in the film originally. 'Gay" had a different meaning back then. .I remember the words in the film back in 1961- they were sung as they were written. The word gay is appropriate if you listen to the lyrics that preceded it. I have an old video of a stage show and the lyrics are the same.Gay does not mean lesbianism as you have mentioned.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Articles

Forum statistics

Threads
356,818
Messages
5,123,889
Members
144,184
Latest member
H-508
Recent bookmarks
0
Top