Warning! 3-year-olds May Be Hazardous! (1 Viewer)

[AjayM]

6. If ANYBODY ever grabbed my son's arm (even if he was mildly misbehaving) and tried to disipline him themselves, they would get the ass kicking of their lifetime.

Well, I understand and agree with all of your points, even this one to some extent. But I think you made this point in reference to the post above where somebody stopped two totally out of control kids. Personally given the circumstances described I don't see anything wrong with what he did, just because they are "your" kids doesn't give you/them the right to be running around putting other people in danger. I probably would have just given a loud "HEY!", just loud enought to make sure everybody saw what was going on (including the totally oblivious mother), that usually works 99% of the time, but every circumstance is different.

A situation like the one Joseph described is totally the fault of the parent. This isn't a case of a child being grabby at the supermarket isle, or whining because he can't have M&M's. This is where the parent decided the inside of the bank was the kids playroom to keep them "out of my hair", and damn who is inconvienced/irritated by it, it's a total lack of responsibility on the parents part.

Andrew

 

[Julie K]

If ANYBODY ever grabbed my son's arm (even if he was mildly misbehaving) and tried to disipline him themselves, they would get the as kicking of their lifetime.

What if he were hitting someone so hard as to fracture their skull? What is "mildly misbehaving"? Would you have kicked the ass of the woman who grabbed the boy in the story?

This is what I find so frustrating. Children can be running wild and creating serious safety hazards for others (and themselves). If the parents (and I'm not suggesting you are amoung them) will not take control and responsibility for their own offspring, then the rest of society must do it or suffer the damages. I am not about to let myself be put at risk by, for instance, children careening down a grocery store aisle with a shopping cart while the mother is oblivious. That time a shout and a glare were enough. But if I feel at risk due to something like that (and with a damaged knee a shopping cart could do serious harm) I will certainly move to physically restrain the child if words fail. In fact, getting beaten up by an angry parent afterwards should only increase my chances of a favorable, and perhaps very lucrative, day in court. (I can just hear my attorney now : "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you have seen how out of control the parent is, is it any wonder the child needed a gentle restraining hand?" )

It takes a village, you know, and I'm a villager.

 

[D. Scott MacDonald]

Have you ever been in a bank with a 3 year old? If the wait is really long, there isn't much that ANY parent can do to control them. My bank knows this, and for this very reason they have a toy section in the corner of the bank where kids can play while their parents do their banking.

Now, I wasn't present in the aforementioned case where the two kids were running around and causing a "dangerous" situation so I can't speak athoratatively on it, but what would you have done to control your kids? Yell at them? Grab them and force them to stay at your side? (In theory this should work, but it doesn't with some kids - lots of yelling and hitting can occur and this can be worse than them running around in the first place.) It's REALLY easy to criticize the parents, but I'm not absolutely positive that it's their fault. Thank god for driver through banking!

Now, I agree that ideally the parent would have "solved" this problem. But I still stand by my statement that if some stranger grabs my kids and tries to disipline them in my presence, they had better be prepared to take it all the way. Instead, I would talk to the parent. They know their kids a lot better than you, and whereas parenting seems really easy to an outsider, there is often a lot more at play than meets the eye.

That said, if my kids were actually knowingly hitting another child, I would expect an adult to step in and stop it (not discipline - just stop it) and I would take it from there. In the case above, it sounds like the kids were not being malicious and any "danger" was simply an accident.

 

[Jack Briggs]

"Have you ever been in a bank with a 3 year old? If the wait is really long, there isn't much that ANY parent can do to control them."

Maybe don't take the kid to the bank with you? Erm, that village thing Julie mentioned. ...

 

[Tommy G]

I've held off on piping in until now. First off, if my kids ever behaved like that in the bank, they would know darn well as soon as we were no longer in a public place they would get the whoopin' of their life. For this reason, they do not misbehave most of the time. If they do, it is never to the extent listed because they know that they would not be watching TV for a week and would get a terrible spanking. Sometimes you can't control them but you can punish them afterwards so that they would never do it again. There, got that off my chest.

 

[AjayM]

That said, if my kids were actually knowingly hitting another child, I would expect an adult to step in and stop it (not discipline - just stop it) and I would take it from there. In the case above, it sounds like the kids were not being malicious and any "danger" was simply an accident.

Using the word malicious is interesting, if a parent never teaches a child right from wrong then a child can't be malicious. The child doesn't know that beating people over the head with things is wrong if the parent has never told them it was wrong to do. There was danger in Joseph's story as well, what happens when the child falls down and busts his head open on the edge of a desk? Whose fault is that? Is that just an accident? Or is that the fault of the parent for letting their kids be out of control? Or is it the fault of the bank?
I agree that kids will be bad at times (and they need to be), it's how the parents deal with it is what makes the difference. If a parent is going to just ignore their kids while they tear up a public place, that's bad. If the kids starts tearing up the place, the parent see's it and then stops it (by either getting control of the child, or leaving the place) that's good.
If having a kid is to much of a hassle that you don't want to or won't be responsible for the kid 24/7/365, then you shouldn't have had kids to begin with.
Scott, I don't mean to be just including you, I think we're pretty much on the same page, just going at it from different ends.
I do get upset from stories like some of the above because it shows that these adults aren't taking responsibility for their own kids. And these kids have a greater chance of growing up and being totally warped by it all, just because the parents don't want to shoulder the responsibility...pisses me off.
Andrew

 

[D. Scott MacDonald]

It takes a village

I agree, but villages tend to be close knit communities and other "villagers" usually know the children and understand their situations before they step in. Many strangers do not meet this criteria and while disciplining may make you feel better as a villager, it does not necesarily make the village a better place.

 

[D. Scott MacDonald]

Wow, it looks like I'm taking it on the chin in this thread.
Actually, I'm not really disagreeing with most of what you are all saying. Maybe I'm still smarting from taking my 3 year old to home depot a few hours after a babsitter gave him a coke - he wanted to run around and in fact did bump into some people before I made him sit in the cart at which time he started throwing a tantrum. I got him out of the store as soon as I could, but I got more than a few looks from other people. All I was trying to say that most parents have stuff like this happen to them every now and then.
I was at no time trying to imply that parents should not be responsible for their children. Parenting styles very radically (I'm more strict than some of you reading this thread would probbaly believe), and likewise some kids respond better to differnt things. Sometimes parenting is really hard.

Go through the drive through. Drop them off at "Grandma's" or a babysitter. Bank at some other time.

In my defense, I did say "Thank god for driver through banking". I agree with the sentiment here - I can just imagine times where things come up that you can't resolve through the drive through and you don't have time to arrange babysitting (which can be hard during the day).
My final statement of this thread: I agree that it's the parents responsiblilty. I believe in controlling your kids. I agree that many parents are way too lenient. I also know that life (like a three year old) is sometimes unpredictable and even really good parents that do everything right are not immune from bad experiences in a bank (or home depot) and there will always be somebody out there that will think that you should have handled it differently.
Peace out.

 

[AjayM]

Hey Scott,
I agree 100%, shit happens, and as you said kids (especially around that age) can be totally unpredictable, it's how the parent handles things after that is what is important. Like your adventures in Home Depot with the caffiene/sugar overdosed kid, try and get the kid out of the store if they won't quite down (that's just me, I don't like to subject other people to that).
The other thing that pisses me off is the way other parents treat other parents, like you said even the best parents can get caught out with a hellion jacked up on sugar and it happens to every parent, but the turned up noses and the whispering is just amazing. Like it's never happened to them. Usually I just smile and chuckle, it's embarassing in some ways for the parent, they want to discipline the kid, but you're in public and you're afraid of what people will say, so you scurry out the door....and it happens all the time.
Ahhh the joys of parenting.
Andrew

 

[Scott Hayes]

Kids and discipline is a tough thing sometimes. My brothers and I were all discipline problems. Spankings didnt really help at all, being sent to our rooms for days on end didnt really deter us. My parents were hardcore disciplinarians. We just were rotten kids. When I was young my parents got rid of the tv because they though that was a small part of the problem. We had to read alot and went to private school. We also robbed and maimed as youngsters, got into lots of trouble. As I became a teenager, my Dad sent me to work for a friend of his. The two of them worked me to death. As soon as I got home from high school it was off to work until 10 come home and do my homework, during christmas, spring, and summer break they would find work for me to do in my spare time. I got into some serious trouble the end of my freshman year. I almost went to jail.

So my Dad had a friend of his who wanted to get an inground pool but couldnt quite afford it. Instead of getting an excavator my Dad "volonteered" me to dig it out by hand. What a job! took me 10 hours a day 6 days a week for all summer (the ground was hard packed clay). I started to see the light after that summer. As I behaved more and more my parents eased up on and by the time I was 18 I was a hard working diligent young man.

I am the oldest, my middle brother who is 5 years younger was a differant story, no matter what my folks did he just go worse. They ended up putting him out on the street when he turned 18. He got heavily into drugs and finally did some jail time. That straightened him out. For the past few years he has lived the straight and narrow and has a good job now and is making a new life for himself.

My youngest brother who is 10 years younger than myself looked up to his older two brothers and was a hellion himself. Quit school young and was really rebelious. But my Dad gave him a job since he wouldnt go to school. He ended up liking the work he was doing and so my Dad gave him more responsibility and work which my brother did really well with. He ended up getting his girlfriend pregnant while they were both pretty young. His daughters birth also helped him over the wildness of youth. They have been together for 6 years now and he is a good father and citizen.

My point is every kid needs differant things. For myself my father giving me hard labor and work straightened me out. My middle brother had to get some prison time to get him straight. And my youngest brother needed responsibility to live correctly. I think that must be the part of parenting that must be the toughest, figuring out what a kid needs to learn to live correctly.

 

[Scott_G]

I don't think we are talking about some kid just misbehaving a little.

Put yourself in these shoes. Your with your wife/friend/child/whatever. Some child with a toy/tool heavy enough to cause great pain hits your "person" causing pain. The parent of the other child does nothing. The kid gets ready to strike again. What would you do.

I don't care. I'd get in the way of that child or hold him is such a way that he or she would not harm someone I cared about.

The parent can come after me, call the cops, I don't care.

When my children were younger, we didn't take them to nice places where they could bother other adults. If they started misbehaving, we left. Too bad. Why should everyone else suffer. How many time have you been in a store, movie, etc. where some kid was just crying forever.

I think there are too many people who think they are the "only people that matter".

 

[Jeffrey Forner]

Scott;

You say that if your child were misbehaving--particularly by harming another child--you would hope that an adult would step in and stop him. Isn't that what Joseph DeMartino was doing by grabbing that one child by the arm after he nearly (although porbably unintentionally) harmed that pregnant woman? Grabbing an arm doesn't necessarily equate to punishment, does it?

I see it as a way of instantly stopping the child in a very effective manner. As a parent, you probably know that often times you can ask a kid to do something with very simple, easy-to-understand English and the kid refuses to listen to you. I doubt that these two kids would have simply stopped if an adult yelled at them. According to his story, he never punished them; he only grabbed the little boy's arm and then asked for the parent to step in an do something about it, be punish them or simply keep them in line during the mother's visit to the bank.

I can understand the protective attitude you have towards your children. Any good parent should feel the same obligation you do towords not only protecting your kids, but also to disciplining them yourself. I can also understand how you might object when someone tells you how to raise your kids. However, just as a parent cannot be expected to control their children every moment during the day, you can't always expect strangers to butt out whenever a sugar-packed child causes trouble.

 

[Scott_G]

I'd get in the way of that child or hold him is such a way that he or she would not harm someone

Perhaps that came across too strong. I think what we have here is two different things.
If a child was running around the bank or other establishment, I doubt I would do anything. My children weren't perfect I'd hope the parent would stop them as soon as possible. Hey I understand. You have to go into the bank for some reason. You have two children and have to fill out some paperwork. They take off. You can either stop and go get them or finish and go get them.
Now lets say your at a toy store and someone left a child in an area to shop around. (happens all the time around here). That child picks up a baseball bat and takes a swing at another child. What do you do. I'd take the bat away from the child and try and get some help from the people working at the store. I'm not talking about harming the other child, just restraining him or her till help arrives.

 

[D. Scott MacDonald]

Well, I said that I wasn't going to post again in this thread, but I changed my mind since I was asked a direct question.

But first, I need you to understand where I'm coming from. Everybody has a difference Toddler Tolerance Level (TTL), and we need to keep this in mind when reading these posts. For some, that level is very very low (I was this way before I had kids). Reading the bank story, I personally question if the toddlers were really as bad as Joseph says they were, or if he just found them really annoying because everybody knows that banks are suppsoed to be quiet. If everbody really applauded when the lady left, then it must have been pretty bad, but I know people that might embelish such a story a little bit. Now I don't know Joseph and I'm not accusing him of anything, but I could imagine a situation where a person might become very agitatetd with the children (as Joseph was with the parent) and when he grabbed the childs arm, he may not have been as gentle as he should have been, or I know people that might actually snap at the children at that point (rather than simply snap at the mother). Since we are only getting one side of the story, I see the posibbility that maybe the children really weren't as horrible as he says, but perhaps he just has an extra low TTL.

Isn't that what Joseph DeMartino was doing by grabbing that one child by the arm after he nearly (although porbably unintentionally) harmed that pregnant woman? Grabbing an arm doesn't necessarily equate to punishment, does it?

This was what I was getting at. I can't tell from Joseph's telling of the story whether he was gently stopping the child, or enforcing some kind of discipline. It's clear from his rude exchange with the mother that he attemptng to discipline her.

As I said in my first post, I know that bad parents exist (and I've met a few). Most parents, however, are really doing the best that they can, and sometimes they deserve a break. Toddlers will act out - it's their job to push the limits of the world to better figure out their place in it. Before we call all parents stupid, maybe we should ask ourselves if we simply have a very low TTL.

Scott_G, I agree with what you said. If they are causing literal harm (or even scaring another child), step in, stop it, and look for somebody else to teach/discipline. If there is nobody else around, tread gently until the adult does come.

 

[BrianW]

I think we're all on the same page. It seems we can boil it down to these two statements:

1. People shouldn't go around disciplining other people's children.

- but -

2. People have a right do defend themselves from physical harm, even if it is from someone else's child.

Have I missed anything?

 

[Eve T]

Well, I was at the dmv today and had to chime in once more. There was a kid there that was a living terror. Now I do realize that children can be difficult when out in public places, but the mother of this child should controled her child. It was obvious to me from the get go that she had probably never diciplined her son. He was bothering the people in line, laying on the floor infront of people, yelling at his mother and scratching her....and this is the kicker....he almost tripped a little old lady who was using a walker! She nearly bit the dust. What did the mother do when she saw all this going on? NOTHING, not even a verbal repromand. I'm glad I was in the express line and could get out of there asap.