Warner Bros. says no to DTS! (1 Viewer)

[Ed St. Clair]

MANY DTSphiles would angrily refuse.

I'll take that bet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ed St. Clair]

quote:

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Then you don't believe 'we' should be able too evaluate DVD's
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I said no such thing. What I DO say is that your evaluation (in the absence of a methodology such as that mentioned) would not be valid proof of the inherent superiority of the DTS codec.

RobertR,
You misquoted me.
My original statement has a question mark at the end!
I was asking a question, not accusing you of anything!

 

[RobertR]

I was asking a question

Okay, so I was answering the question

 

[Philip Hamm]

The funny part is that if offered the opportunity to participate in a test such as Michael mentioned, there is no doubt in my mind that many, MANY DTSphiles would angrily refuse.

I completely disagree. I'm sure most DTS fans would love to participate in such a test.

I can't believe it. There are multiple discs out there (some of which are are independantly produced) with PCM, DD, and DTS tracks of the same music. Throwing a hihg-rez PCM track in with native 16/20 formats like DD/DTS is a little bit of a monkey wrench, but I can think of at least one disc that has 48KHz PCM 5.1 tracks. It's a Warner title (Donald Fagan's "The Nightfly") so I would suspect that it would be a fair test considering their track record with DD and DTS. Use the DD/DTS decoders in the DVD-A player and you're using the same DACs all the way. Why can't we use these to compare the formats at home? No matter what we do it's not even partially valid? I don't buy that for a second.

How far do you want to take it? Do I need a double-blind test to see that a $500 Best Buy receiver sounds different than a $4000 separates system? The differences there will in my experience be as subtle as the difference between codecs on the same system. Would you tell someone they're wasting their time and biased if they did that kind of test in a showroom?

Hell, these DVD-A discs are a really fantastic way to at least get an idea of how close these lossless compressions get to the original. I've done the comparison, I've also compared ATRAC 4.5 compressed MiniDisc with the original CD audio.

I've also compared the cheapest crappy pack-in cables that I could find my house with the best AudioQuest cables I have.

The results from all these have been interesting and fun as well. A good excuse for another Home Theater gathering in my house I think.

I remember when this hobby was supposed to be fun.

 

[RobertR]

I remember when this hobby was supposed to be fun.

No one said you can't have fun (people who call psychic hotlines have fun). But when you make dubious claims, be prepared to be challenged.

 

[Shane Martin]

Who said we are making a claim rather than sharing our opinion on the internet. I swear people are out to just dispute everything aren't they Robert? We're sharing our opinion that is all.

But when you make dubious claims, be prepared to be challenged

Do you always treat the internet as Gospel? Opinions are like assholes..everyone has one.

 

[RobertR]

Do you always treat the internet as Gospel

What does examining whether someone's opinion has a sound basis have to do with treating the Internet as Gospel?

 

[David Judah]

As I said, I've seen DTSphiles say they have no interest in DBTs.

Instead of meaningless generalizations about so called DTSphiles on the internet, why don't we keep it to the people participating in this thread or at least members of this Forum.

As Philip and I mentioned we have done comparisons, so have other members of this Forum(and they've posted their results). Perhaps they don't conform to your rigorous scientific standards, but remember we are talking about members of an Internet Forum posting opinions, not members of the AES who are submitting a paper for peer review(Shane's point).

Now those members felt confident enough in their conclusions that they posted their results and, of course, they fully expected to be raked over the coals(which always happens when someone broaches the subject). Come to think of it maybe they would have had an easier time over at the AES.

Since it seems so important to you that members perform the comparisons "right," why don't you host a HTF meet and invite members in your area and then post the results? If nothing else, you'll have a good time with people who share your interest in this Hobby(unless your only interest is to point out how other members got it wrong).

So what, if someone thinks DTS is better and would like WB to include it more often? How is giving DVD buyers a choice of surround sound formats a bad thing? That seems to be the gist of what members are saying in this thread to WB(among other things).

Continuing this thread in the current vein doesn't advance the discussion, just the art of sophistry.

DJ

 

[Philip Hamm]

Since it seems so important to you that members perform the comparisons "right," why don't you host a HTF meet and invite members in your area and then post the results? If nothing else, you'll have a good time with people who share your interest in this Hobby(unless your only interest is to point out how other members got it wrong).

He's already stated that it's impossible for it to be "right" anywhere short of a laboratory as far as he's concerned.

 

[RobertR]

How is giving DVD buyers a choice of surround sound formats a bad thing?

Why are you asking me? It was Warner's decision, not mine. I have no objection to the inclusion of DTS, as long as other aspects aren't sacrificed (picture quality, etc.). Nor do I have a problem saying that a given DTS mix can sound better than a given DD mix. I'm simply saying that there's no sound technical basis for assuming that Warner DVDS are going to instantly sound better if they have DTS (as mentioned earlier, Warner engineers have done their own comparisons to the master, and didn't think there was a significant difference). Why do YOU get so bent out of shape when someone expresses an opinion that he doesn't think it's that big a deal?

 

[RobertR]

He's already stated that it's impossible for it to be "right" anywhere short of a laboratory as far as he's concerned.

FYI, DBTs are conducted in people's homes, on their own equipment, with their own recordings, not in a "laboratory".

 

[David Judah]

Why do YOU get so bent out of shape when someone expresses an opinion that he doesn't think it's that big a deal?

I'm not bent, but it does seem like others are when someone mentions they prefer DTS to DD. It's very predictable and it has been that way since I've been a member here.

I'm not really pro-DTS as much as I'm pro-having a choice. I do think there is value in the codec until lossless schemes become feasible. After all, in most cases, we are beyond the point now where space saving is of the utmost concern and where other things have to be sacrificed(as studios other than WB have repeatedly demonstrated).

DJ

 

[Dan Hitchman]

My God, I can see why my statement that DTS and Dolby Digital need to go away is indeed valid!

There are two much better formats: high rez 24 bit (96 or 192 kHz) PCM (with no audio watermarking!!) and high rez DSD that could be used on a high capacity medium that we shouldn't have to put up with lossy compressed audio anymore!

Dan

 

[David Judah]

Here, here, Dan(or is it hear, hear)

 

[Philip Hamm]

The only test that has meaning to me is to do separate double-blind tests. One large group compares DTS to the original master in an ABX test. The other large group compares DD to the original master in an ABX test. Nobody compares DD to DTS. Whichever one fools the most people is the most transparent.

Try that at home. In order to do this you need at least a mastering studio. You'd need the original PCM master, Dolby Digital encoded version, and DTS encoded version available at the touch of a button in a true double-blind manner. That's a laboratory.

The way the multiformat DVD-A discs that I have are mastered, you couldn't possibly double-blind test at home with them unless you have some kind of switcher and three identical DVD-A players.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Wow, I wish I wasn't on vacation until the 19th. There's no way I can keep up with this thread (I'm on a friend's PC right now, I don't travel with a notebook or anything).

A couple of thoughts.

1) Many people feel many/most DTS discs sound better. This proves nothing. The issue is transparency. Hell, even MFSL applied a 'smile shaped' EQ to certain albums to make them sound 'better' in the ears of many audiophiles. It will make it sound different from the other vinyl, you'll be able to spot it in a second - but it doesn't make it more transparent to the master.

2) Even most advocates of using DTS for everything acknowledge that on at least a handful of discs they sound virtually the same. They seem to assume that these discs are encoded 'wrong'. Ever consider that these are the ones that are encoded 'right'?

3) Why do you keep bringing up DVD-A and music discs? They are full bitrate and this discussion was about movies, and for movies full-bitrate DTS is dead.

Well, I'll be having too much fun on the left coast to keep up. Have fun, and I'll contribute in about 10 days.

 

[greg_t]

For now. According to Widescreen Reviews last interview with DTS, which I believe was February (I don't have the issue in front of me),DTS has two full time people, one in Europe, and one in California whose job is to work with the studios and educate them as to their "bit budgets" and to educate them that they can use full bitrate. So far it doesn't seem to be doing much, but who knows, maybe with some time, full bitrate will come back.

 

[Ed St. Clair]

There are two much better formats: high rez 24 bit (96 or 192 kHz) PCM (with no audio watermarking!!) and high rez DSD that could be used on a high capacity medium that we shouldn't have to put up with lossy compressed audio anymore!

Dan,
That just 'starts' the LPCM vs. DSD debate!!!

 

[Ed St. Clair]

For now. According to Widescreen Reviews last interview with DTS, which I believe was February (I don't have the issue in front of me),DTS has two full time people, one in Europe, and one in California whose job is to work with the studios and educate them as to their "bit budgets" and to educate them that they can use full bitrate. So far it doesn't seem to be doing much, but who knows, maybe with some time, full bitrate will come back.

Their sure doing a bang up job, aren't they!
I, for one, am not holding my breath.

 

[Ed St. Clair]

Have fun, my 'brother' Michael!