Very awkward floorplan, please help me figure out my surround placements

Standsontoes

Extra
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
16
Reaction score
1
Points
10
Age
40
Real Name
Dave
Screenshot_20200514-001921_Samsung Notes.jpg

So this is the space im working with...
Currently doing a full reno of our basement.
Ive got the cabling ran from my AV stack which is in another room, im waiting on my 500ft of speaker wire to arrive so i can run that aswell before the dry wall goes onto the walls and ceiling.

Im at a loss of what to do for my surrounds...

In the above picture the green is the main listening couch which is 15ft away from the display.

Im really going for a clean look for the room so bookshelves in stands for the surrounds is going to be my absolute last resort.

The woofer will be stage left in between two pinball machines ( tips for a better spot?)

I have 7.1 capablity but for the space i might downgrade to 5.1


So with the shape of the room im feeling my only option are ceiling drivers for the surrounds ( or for surrounds and rears if i go 7.1).

Really wanna stay away from the bookshelves on stands...



If i go wall mounted would it completely throw off the sound stage to have the surrounds at different distances to the listening position?... if would be a good 10ft of difference...



Anyways thanks for any suggestions.....
Ive been a longtime lurker....
 

Bob Bielski

Second Unit
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
437
Reaction score
104
Points
110
Location
MA.
Real Name
Robert Bielski
I'll give you some info on the sub, and I would strongly suggest not to ceiling mount the rear surrounds, you want to reserve the ceiling for future Atmos ability. The walls being so far away at different lengths from the couch could work if you make one speaker louder than the other, like the farther one higher in db output using pink noise. Reflection wise that could be tamed with absorption but different time arrival of the wall reflection is tied with distance so that is tough. Not really important with surround sound though. I would go with floorstanders behind the couch. Same speakers preferably as your mains, AND center channel if possible. Other option is go longwise.
Put the display where you have the sub now, and then if you wanted to hide the speakers, you could put them in the rear wall at EAR level.
Try to get all the tweeters at the same height of your ears when you are seated.
 

Attachments

Last edited:

JohnRice

Executive Producer
Joined
Jun 20, 2000
Messages
12,884
Reaction score
2,301
Points
9,110
Location
A Mile High
Website
www.theteatable.com
Real Name
John
I would try the sub between the center and right speaker instead of so far over to the side. Between the center and left puts it pretty close to the center of the wall, which is bad, so right is the better choice.
 

Standsontoes

Extra
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
16
Reaction score
1
Points
10
Age
40
Real Name
Dave
I'
Put the display where you have the sub now, and then if you wanted to hide the speakers, you could put them in the rear wall at EAR level.

Haha that was my plan but the wife vetod where the display has to sit..... also where the sub is sitting in the picture is where two pinball machines and an arcade machine sit

I would try the sub between the center and right speaker instead of so far over to the side. Between the center and left puts it pretty close to the center of the wall, which is bad, so right is the better choice.
I was thinking of having the sub just off center of the display, however if i do that it would have to only be set off the wall only 12 inches or so' i was playing around with the idea of having it under a pinball machine' because then it would be 5-6ft away from and walls... ill probably just end up moving the sub around the room once i get to calibrating the system as a whole.


The walls being so far away at different lengths from the couch could work if you make one speaker louder than the other, like the farther one higher in db output using pink noise. Reflection wise that could be tamed with absorption but different time arrival of the wall reflection is tied with distance so that is tough. Not really important with surround sound though.
I did figure i could just up the decibels on the farther surround, but wasnt too sure how it would sound in practice, ive always had very symmetrical layouts in rectangle rooms for my 5.1 set ups in past houses.

...You want to reserve the ceiling for future Atmos ability.
I am planning on running cable for Atmos so it there if i ever decide to upgrade my AVR



Also was mentioned was making sure i have matched speakers, i do, a matched 5.1 Klipsch reference series

Running a ONKYO TX-NR616 for the AVR

Ive ordered a blackbird HDMIbaseT pair to get the 4k signal to my display from the AV stack (Cat 6)

And using guides online i went with using 12AWG speaker wire to reach my drivers which have about 80ft runs of wire.

Ive also got a run of RCA going from the stack to the display wall for my turntable to be out in the room.... if theres any vinyl junkies out that that would know... is 80ish ft of rca too long for a turntables signal to reach the preamp?


Thanks for the input gents
 

Bob Bielski

Second Unit
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
437
Reaction score
104
Points
110
Location
MA.
Real Name
Robert Bielski
My tech makes his own turntable connects and he uses coaxial cable.
I questioned him about it and he said it was great for the signal and had superior shielding against RF and EMI signals. Probably better and cheaper than RCA interconnects.
And CAT 6 can be had in fiber optic.
That not only has much greater bandwidth, but no signal loss and no EMI or RF interference. A little more money, a lot more quality signal transfer. Also what was the strand count in the 12 guage speaker wire?
I found a 10 guage OFC over 400 strand count. Not plenum rated, but if you run it in a conduit it could pass inspection, and could be swapped out in the future if so desired.
Tough dealing with the wife. I know first hand. Don't be afraid to experiment with placement.
Good luck and post the end results please.
 

Dave Upton

Audiophile
Owner
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
3,508
Reaction score
921
Points
4,110
Location
Houston, TX
Real Name
Dave Upton
I would actually strongly recommend going with an optical HDMI cable over a 4K HDBaseT setup. Monoprice sales optical HDMI cables in all sorts of lengths
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bob Bielski

Standsontoes

Extra
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
16
Reaction score
1
Points
10
Age
40
Real Name
Dave
I would actually strongly recommend going with an optical HDMI cable over a 4K HDBaseT setup. Monoprice sales optical HDMI cables in all sorts of lengths
I was completley unaware optical HDMI was a thing..... i literally spent a week googling how to get a 4k signal for to 100ft. All my googling said the baseT via Cat6 boxes are the way to go for Hz and bandwidth....

Are these monoprice cables certified? Hows the latency, my son is stressing that moving the AV stack is gonna mess with his gamig ?

The blackbird box i ordered is on par for pricing of a few of those cables....

Please learn me up on this, i thought for sure i had the display cabling figured out... can other chime in?

Heres the box i ordered.. but i definatly return if the optical hdmi is a better option
 

Dave Upton

Audiophile
Owner
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
3,508
Reaction score
921
Points
4,110
Location
Houston, TX
Real Name
Dave Upton
I was completley unaware optical HDMI was a thing..... i literally spent a week googling how to get a 4k signal for to 100ft. All my googling said the baseT via Cat6 boxes are the way to go for Hz and bandwidth....

Are these monoprice cables certified? Hows the latency, my son is stressing that moving the AV stack is gonna mess with his gamig ?

The blackbird box i ordered is on par for pricing of a few of those cables....

Please learn me up on this, i thought for sure i had the display cabling figured out... can other chime in?

Heres the box i ordered.. but i definatly return if the optical hdmi is a better option
Yes, these are fully certified cables, and quite affordable:

 

Standsontoes

Extra
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
16
Reaction score
1
Points
10
Age
40
Real Name
Dave
My tech makes his own turntable connects and he uses coaxial cable.
I questioned him about it and he said it was great for the signal and had superior shielding against RF and EMI signals. Probably better and cheaper than RCA interconnects.
And CAT 6 can be had in fiber optic.
That not only has much greater bandwidth, but no signal loss and no EMI or RF interference. A little more money, a lot more quality signal transfer. Also what was the strand count in the 12 guage speaker wire?
I found a 10 guage OFC over 400 strand count. Not plenum rated, but if you run it in a conduit it could pass inspection, and could be swapped out in the future if so desired.
Tough dealing with the wife. I know first hand. Don't be afraid to experiment with placement.
Good luck and post the end results please.

To be honest my main concerns for the speaker wire were : 12awg, CL2, would get here in a reasonable time , and price.... big focus on the delivery time as construction is on going and im trying to get cables run before the drywall goes up (heating and vent guy is luckily holding the process up right now)

Anyways all the AV stores are closed locally due to Covid ... so sadly Amazon checked off my wants ... it didnt list the strand count per conductor... looks like standard commercail wire
Amazon product

The RCA cables i actually already had so thats why i was thinking of running them for the turntable... work was gonna toss them so i was allowed to take them, been sitting in my garage for a couple years waiting for a project like this

I was concerned with EMI over that distance i guess ill have to look into it deeper and make a choice.... but to be honest free cables already here area big pro to marginal audio quality loss on a seldom used component...

Will do on a finished product shot... hopefully end of june the project will be done


Thanks again for the input guys keep it coming, its much appreciated
 

Dave Upton

Audiophile
Owner
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
3,508
Reaction score
921
Points
4,110
Location
Houston, TX
Real Name
Dave Upton
To be honest my main concerns for the speaker wire were : 12awg, CL2, would get here in a reasonable time , and price.... big focus on the delivery time as construction is on going and im trying to get cables run before the drywall goes up (heating and vent guy is luckily holding the process up right now)

Anyways all the AV stores are closed locally due to Covid ... so sadly Amazon checked off my wants ... it didnt list the strand count per conductor... looks like standard commercail wire
Amazon product

The RCA cables i actually already had so thats why i was thinking of running them for the turntable... work was gonna toss them so i was allowed to take them, been sitting in my garage for a couple years waiting for a project like this

I was concerned with EMI over that distance i guess ill have to look into it deeper and make a choice.... but to be honest free cables already here area big pro to marginal audio quality loss on a seldom used component...

Will do on a finished product shot... hopefully end of june the project will be done


Thanks again for the input guys keep it coming, its much appreciated
There's nothing wrong at all with 12 gauge wire - in fact I think anything thicker is a waste. I run some very high power amps (4-1500WPC) and all my cables are 12 gauge.
 

Standsontoes

Extra
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
16
Reaction score
1
Points
10
Age
40
Real Name
Dave
There's nothing wrong at all with 12 gauge wire - in fact I think anything thicker is a waste. I run some very high power amps (4-1500WPC) and all my cables are 12 gauge.
The chart i used online said best to go with 12g for my impedence (8ohm) and run length... i was going to go with 10g since i was on the upper end of max run length for that guage/impedence combo, but couldnt find CL2 in a spool big enough.... either way i think im looking good with 12g for my set up.
 

Standsontoes

Extra
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
16
Reaction score
1
Points
10
Age
40
Real Name
Dave
That's a huge problem. Signal loss on an already low voltage signal is an even bigger problem.
Yeah good point...
Would you suggest I throw the preamp out in the room with the turn table then? Probably a better signal coming off the preamp than just the turntable itself.

Im going to dig out the long RCA tomorrow and see if its shielded and plug it into the system and test it out....if not i might check out other options just gotta figure out which rubbermaid its in....
 

JohnRice

Executive Producer
Joined
Jun 20, 2000
Messages
12,884
Reaction score
2,301
Points
9,110
Location
A Mile High
Website
www.theteatable.com
Real Name
John
A line level output from the phono preamp would be better than the output from the turntable, but I have zero experience with sending signals that far. 80 feet is an extremely long distance to go. I would expect problems all over the place and all sorts of compromises.
 

Bob Bielski

Second Unit
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
437
Reaction score
104
Points
110
Location
MA.
Real Name
Robert Bielski
The only reason I mentioned the strand count is because electrons travel along the wire not through it like water inside a pipe. I am a bit crazy on getting the most I can as far as resistance and impedance goes. I have an amp that is 500 watts into 4ohms that my speakers are, and it can handle any impedance no problem. Super high current and super damping as well. 12 gauge is certainly fine, I just over do everything way to much. I really think you should run conduit for the wire, and that way you can change to any upgrade in the future and still not be out of code. The wall rating DOES limit some choices. I talked to the building inspector in my city about conduit because I totally gutted my first floor and was thinking about when I got upstairs how I could use any wire I wanted and be able to swap out and upgrade in the future so that is why I eventually will be running my wire in a conduit. Just something to think about to future proof the ease of upgrade.
If you don't have the drywall up yet are you going to stuff the inside walls with insulation, like maybe safe and sound rockwool for sound reduction? That stuff is easy to install yourself, and it is fire proof too. Now is the time to do what you can when the walls are open.
I still think your best bet is to set up long ways in your floor plan and forget about the pinball machines. Just tell the wife there is no other way to do it. It is a better way to set up the sound, at least as far as stereo goes, the long way in the room, so in your case you will get the rear surrounds taken car of that way. I will keep an eye on your post to see how you end up. And you did come to the right forum to get some good advice. John is as good as it gets for advice and Dave knows his shit too. And like John said EMI isn't so much a problem with speaker wire like RF is. Think of keeping the path clear of any motors like from a ceiling fan, or any fluorescent lights, and I am sure there is other devices if too close could cause an issue. Good luck and when done post some pictures.
 

Al.Anderson

Cinematographer
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Messages
2,643
Reaction score
92
Points
4,110
Real Name
Al
I'd try out the sub in the 2nd corner directly behind the middle of the couch.
And I would ceiling mount the surrounds. Better to have semi-decent placement of the surrounds than save the space for tertiary Atmos effects. Use Atmos in the front/middle.
You could probably make use of rears ceiling mounted too; that might "dampen" the effect of the slightly too close surrounds.

And Bob, I love the strand count comment, we don't get enough physics references these days.
 

Standsontoes

Extra
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
16
Reaction score
1
Points
10
Age
40
Real Name
Dave
The wall rating DOES limit some choices..
That would make sense... i guess cost would shoot way up for rated small guages..

If you don't have the drywall up yet are you going to stuff the inside walls with insulation, like maybe safe and sound rockwool for sound reduction? That stuff is easy to install yourself, and it is fire proof too. Now is the time to do what you can when the walls are open.
I put insulation into all the new interior walls i put up, and i threw in insulation into the ceiling......


I still think your best bet is to set up long ways in your floor plan and forget about the pinball machines. Just tell the wife there is no other way to do it.
Yes completley agree.... when putting in the walls the plan was for long ways to be the set up for it.........

But wife wants the display where she wants it... shes dead set on it being off to the side like in the above picture so that the rest of the room functions as the rec room, "her vision of it" blah blah blah....... we all know how that goes....

And pinball machines are always a must..... but yes there's tons of room elsewhere for them...


I'd try out the sub in the 2nd corner directly behind the middle of the couch.
And I would ceiling mount the surrounds. Better to have semi-decent placement of the surrounds than save the space for tertiary Atmos effects. Use Atmos in the front/middle.
You could probably make use of rears ceiling mounted too; that might "dampen" the effect of the slightly too close surrounds.

That spot is my second choice for the sub.... but im really going to try it out everywhere.

My thoughts exactly on the ATMOS... id rather have good placement of the main speakers...



So my furnace guy is now waiting on an electrician to put a new breaker in and something something.... so ive got some time now...



OK SO HERES MY PLAN

I went out and bought a cheapish pair of ceilings ... simply so i can try out ceiling placement and get a feel for how it sounds having the drivers up above instead of properly to the side. Im going to try out my bookshelves in different spots and see what the give and take for the set ups are.... i figure this is worth the time incase I hate how inceilings sound

So if i like how the ceilings sound ill go drop the cash on a real set that match my current system better .
On the plus side of this idea ill have a set of ceiling speakers to install in my garage for tuneskies...




On the RCA cable topic i dug out tested and ran the giant cables i had..... turns out it was coax its sheilded and it sounds great .... i am left with about 50ft of it in the AV room so ill have to re-terminate that end eventually ...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bob Bielski

Forum Sponsors

Forum statistics

Threads
343,766
Messages
4,689,261
Members
141,037
Latest member
Alliebelle