Veneerer respect (1 Viewer)

[Dan Wesnor]

Raw veneer can be easily wrapped around corners (with the grain) as long as you get it a little wet first. Raw veneer is also thicker and less likely to sand through. I use a power sander, but I start at 150 grit and set the sander on its lowest speed.

For jointing veneer before splicing, see my tutorial on http://www.audiodiycentral.com/ .

Wax paper will solve the gluing-to-the-cawl problems.

Raw veneer requires careful handling, but it's cheap so you can buy lots of scraps off eBay to practice with. Some veneers are easier than others. Mahogany, cherry, spanish cedar and a few others are easy to work, finish, and end up looking good. Exotics like rosewood will split if you look at them funny.

 

[Mark_J_H_Jr]

Dan,

I did wise up and use wax paper after my "accident".

As far as sanders go, it seems to me that on a flat surface a power sander is fine. I got into trouble around corners and trying to sand dried glue off the veneer. Too much pressure and time sanding.

Chris,

I need to visit your lumber yard! Sounds like you have a great connection there.

As far as

ooh, ooh, I know!
How about an array of Tumults in an IB?

Would 4 be enough?

 

[Brian Bunge]

Would 4 be enough?

Well, if that's all you can afford...it'll be a nice start. You can add more later!

 

[John E Janowitz]

Veneering can be a big PIA. It takes awhile to get used to get good at it. I had many times when I thought I had a cabinet done well, and then came back to see that where i wrapped the veneer around a 1" radius, it wasn't stuck down good.

The biggest tip I have is DO NOT USE CONTACT CEMENT. If you talk to any professional, they will tell you that contact cement is not intended for veneer, whether paper backed, wood backed, or raw veneer. Contact cement gives a COhesive bond. Glue sticking to glue, but not actually sticking the veneer to the glue. You really want an ADhesive bond. FSV glue was designed specifically for Flexible Sheet Veneers. It is intended for paper backed as well as wood backed veneers. You can get it from John Ersing at Veneer systems, www.veneersystems.com

As far as sandthroughs go, I have had that problem myself. Mainly when I veneer one side, then do an adjacent side and try to sand off the glue that got on the first piece. On anything high end, I veneer the first set of sides, then sand with 220 and spray with a coat of clear conversion varnish to get a build to it. The glue doesn't stick as much, and you have that extra build of varnish to sand into before ever sanding into the veneer itself.

John

Here are the details on the glue.

Here are the details.
F.S.V. Adhesive
Flexible Sheet Veneer Adhesive

Description
F.S.V. is a high quality synthetic resin dispersion cold setting adhesive. It is specially formulated for use with a wide range of flexible sheet veneers. Particleboard, MDF, and other wood component cores can be used in a nip roll or hand roll application process where fast tack and quick set with minimum pressure is required. This product is also suitable for use with high pressure laminates.

Type:
Synthetic resin dispersion

Technical Data:

Viscosity Cps 7500-8500

Solids % 52-58

Freeze Thaw Stable No

Storage Life @ 70(F 6 months

Color Light pink

Advantages:
* Environmentally friendly - no voc, non-polluting
* Quick tack, fast set
* Minimal pressure requirements
* Light pink for ease of visibility
* Good gap filling properties
* Good heat resistance
* Enables wrapping around many tight radii

Applications:
*Application of flexible sheet veneer to a wide range of substrates
* Lamination of HPL to flat wood based composite cores
* Cold press

Directions For Use:
* All wood substrates should be conditioned at room temperature at 6-9% moisture content
* A 20-35 lbs/msgl or 4-7 mil spread is adequate applied by roller
* Sheet veneer is then applied to substrate allowing a maximum open assembly time of 5 minutes but is dependent on porosity of the substrates, room temperature, and quantity applied
* Allow a maximum closed assembly time of 10-15 minutes prior to running through the nip roller.
* While the glue is still wet the panel is then passed through a nip roller. Glue should be "wet" when the assembly is passed through the nip roller. Another effective application of pressure involves the use of a wooden scraper or block. Be sure to use consistent even pressure across the entire panel.
* Note: Nip rolling can be accomplished with effectively no open/closed assembly time. However, the best initial tack and final bond occurs through the use of maximum open and closed assembly times.
* Panels may be dead stacked allowing a cure time of about 45 minutes to 1 hour. A 24-hour cure time is recommended before machining. No additional pressure is required.

Cleanup:
If the adhesive is still liquid, use warm water. Dried adhesive can be removed with hot water.
For waste disposal, compliance with all applicable federal, state and local regulation must be observed.

Storage:
F.S.V. can be stored in factory sealed containers for 6 months at 77 F. Protect from frost.

Also, do not use one of those little rubber J rollers. They don't get nearly enough pressure. When you use a 3" roller and push down one it, you get a contact surface of about 3" x 1/2" wide, contact area of 1.5sq inches. Compare that to one of the wooden or hard plastic nip rollers, a veneer hammer, or simply the edge of a block of wood. A wooden roller 1" wide will give a contact area of about 1" x 1/8" on the surface, .125sq inches. With that, your pressure will be 12 times greater than with the J roller without having to push any harder. A veneer hammer or the edge of a block of wood gives even more pressure. Make sure to use SOFTWOOD like pine so you don't scratch up the veneer.

 

[John E Janowitz]

Apparently my response was too long for one post, some was cutoff.

Anyway, regarding sand through, the most common time I have done this is when veneering adjacent sides and trying to sand off the glue that got on the first sides. I now do the first set of sides, sand with 220, then spray a coat of conversion varnish on before going on to the next side. The glue doesn't stick to the varnish much at all, and there is now an extra build to sand through before ever getting through the veneer.

John

 

[Darren_T]

I both agree and disagree with John on the contact cement. There are better glues to use for veneer than contact cement but the bond formed by contact cement is more than adequate. The glue does bond to both surfaces and then to itself when laminated so the bond it quite permanent. Just try removing a sheet of veneer after you laminate it with contact cement if you don't believe me Can't do it. You gotta toss the cabinet or spend some time sanding...lots of time

Anyway, I wouldn't shy away from contact cement because it is readily available and quite strong.

Darren

 

[Darren_T]

Just looked at your line array speaks John, NICE WORK!

I like em.

 

[Mark_J_H_Jr]

Since we are on a roll here,

So you guys do one side at a time, or do you wrap it on all 4 sides and then let the glue dry?

 

[Darren_T]

I prefer to round the vertical edges and wrap the veneer all the way around having only one seam on the back. Then do the top and bottom.

 

[Brian Bunge]

Depends on what you're talking about. When we wrap the veneer, we apply the glue to the substrate and the veneer. After it's dried 30 minutes or so, we wrap the veneer all the way around, piece it in the back, trim, and then glue and veneer the tops and bottoms.

 

[John E Janowitz]

Darren,

One other problem with contact cement is that heat releases the bond. If you veneer a sub with contact cement and a customer puts it next to a heat register, the whole side can bubble up. The FSV glue doesn't have this problem

Thanks about the line array. I still need to build a solid walnut and maple base for it, then finish the second one to match the pair. I'll eventually get to that.

Mark,
When veneering and wrapping corners, I wrap and have one seam in the back if the cabinet is small enough. If it's bigger and you can't do that, I either have a piece on the back making 2 seame, or I do one seam on each side for really big boxes.

I apply glue to the flat edges with no seams first, get those down so everything is aligned and the piece can't slide. Once the one flat side is dried, I then start going around the corners and onto the next sides.

John

 

[Dennis XYZ]

Errrr, John, a couple of points.....

First, Mark used the glue you so strongly advocate and that's the one he had so much trouble with.

Second, you say no professionals use contact cement but I think our resident long-time cabinet shop owner Pete M. would beg to differ. He goes through enough contact cement that he has a spray gun dedicated to it.

Bottom line, it ain't the glue, it's the gluer.

 

[Andrus_R]

What about 3M Spray 90? 3M says it's for laminates...

 

[John E Janowitz]

Well, when referring to professionals not using contact cement for veneers, I was going on what everyone said on the Veneer forum at Woodweb:

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/veneer.pl

People have stated over and over again that contact cement is not intended for veneering sheet veneers.

The FSV glue is much more difficult to use. You have to apply a very light even coat with a roller. Putting it on too thick makes your piece of veneer slide all over the place. It doesn't instantly stick to itself like contact cement does, and you need a lot more pressure to get a good bond. You can't just roll over it once and be done. You really need to keep going back and forth over the piece working it with your block of wood until it fully sets up. The nice thing though is that you have a few minutes of working time so if it's not aligned right, you can pull it up and realign it.

Andrus,

The 3M stuff can be used with about the same results as contact cement. There are many glues though that work well with laminates that do not work well with paper backed veneers. Formica makes a whole line of glues for putting down laminates. None of them that I am aware of will work for veneers. FSV glue has 52-58% solids. I think the highest solids content in the Formica stuff is about 28-30%.

John

 

[Pete Mazz]

Second, you say no professionals use contact cement but I think our resident long-time cabinet shop owner Pete M. would beg to differ. He goes through enough contact cement that he has a spray gun dedicated to it.

The reason I hesitate to get involved with some of these discussions is the fact that my methods and equipment are usually far removed from what you guys have to work with. Not only that, but the contact cement I buy is not sold on the retail market. Rolling on contact cement can be a hit or miss proposition if you don't do it right or use the proper tools. As far as veneer and contact cement, as with anything else, it depends on the job at hand. I certainly wouldn't use contact cement to bond paper backed veneer to a table top (I wouldn't use paper backed veneer for a tabletop anyway, but that's another discussion), but for speaker enclosures I wouldn't hesitate. The bottom line is if you can achieve a good bond while keeping the veneer flat, it's good enough for speakers.

Pete

 

[Andrus_R]

Well, that reminds me. It's been sometime since i finished that woodworking class. I may go back to woodworking school and find out what was it they were using to glue laminates and veneers.

If i remember correctly they were using some white spider web like substance that shot out of brass pistol grip sprayer attached to what looked like a large propane tank. That stuff was STRONG and it bonded instantly.

 

[Pete Mazz]

If i remember correctly they were using some white spider web like substance that shot out of brass pistol grip sprayer attached to what looked like a large propane tank. That stuff was STRONG and it bonded instantly.

One of the trade names for that is Sta-Put. It was originally used in upholstery for bonding foams. It is not as strong as contact cement, but is much easier to use.

Pete

 

[Darren_T]

John,

Once the contact cement has cured it won't re-activate with heat. My surround speakers just spent the entire summer in my uncovered window in 95+ degree direct sunlight and look just as good as the day I veneered them. My veneered sub just happens to be over a heat register too No problem there either. Strange that you've found different though. I've even tried hitting an enclosure with my heat gun a day after veneering because of a mistake and it wasn't going anywhere. Couldn't get it off there without destroying the veneer in the process.

Darren

 

[Hank Frankenberg]

Well, it appears lots of us use contact cement with paper-backed veneer and it works.
I ordered two gallons of the CustomPak FSV and really liked it, except for its short open time. One other thing I'm really steamed about is that after I bought it and have most of a gallon left after a year, I find out the the shelf life is less than a year - so I wasted my money on a gallon (and the shipping cost was outrageous!) I hate to disagree with John the pro, but I didn't have to rub it down any harder than I do with contact cement. On second thought, if you've noticed my comments, I put a tremendous abount of pressure on the edge of an oak board when I rub down veneer with contact cement, so I get the idea that I put on more pressure than most guys - especially when I continue to see people recommending using a rubber "J" roller to apply pressure to glued veneer. Do not use a J roller - it will not apply enough p.s.i. pressure to completely bond the cement.

 

[Hank Frankenberg]

Mark, I don't veneer the backs of speaker cabinets, and have never had anyone ask why not. I round over the front vertical edges and start veneer on one side with overhang on the back edge and top and bottom, then wrap around the first front corner, across the baffle, second corner and other side. Then I veneer the top. For the back, I've laminated with WilsonArt black countertop laminate - the standard one that Lowes and Home Depot usually stock - about $40 a 4' x 8' sheet. For saving a bit, I recently used the P.E. black ash vinyl. It works well if your MDF is perfectly smooth.