VA rating for the Outlaw power supplies??? (1 Viewer)

[Legairre]

Sorry guys. Randy is correct. I meant "VA". i was typing along and got carried away :b. Change it to Va and it makes sense.

I apologize for the confusion.

 

[JimN]

I think the confusion is in Va vs. VA. My question then becomes if the Rotel consumes 1600 Watts Max. and the Outlaw consumes 1800 Watts Max. aren't they both producing close to the same output? Unless of course the efficiency of the amps is vastly different, which seems unlikely unless they are running in different amp classes.

 

[Ricky T]

Patrick,

Watts consumed/available is not the same as watts at output (ie, to the speakers); the difference can be called "efficiency". Someone who designed amps for Bryston told me that most amplifiers are about 50% efficient.

Also, the ATI1505 (2.0kVA, rated 150x5) and Parasound 1205A (1.5kVA, rated 140x5), like their bigger brothers both have over 300VA per channel and outperformed their ratings in mag tests.

 

[Charles Gurganus]

Following this link provides some usefull information....
http://www.ecoustics.com/Home/Home_A...Multi_Channel/
Go to the widescreen review of the outlaw amp. It states the amp has a 1.5KVA transformer. This amp is rated at 165 wpc(at 8 ohms....)---not 200 wpc.

 

[Legairre]

Jim,

I'd also doubt that they are in different classes. Can't answer the efficiency question, becuae I don't have any number on the efficiency of either amp. I'll try writing Rotel and Outlaw and see if they will provide them though.

 

[Ricky T]

Guys,

You know, manufacturers can have their own ways to spec watts, distortion, maximum watts drawn.

In comparing amps, I tend to look at the following hard, objective features for apples to apples comparisons:

1) weight of amp (ie, how many pounds)

2) size of power transformer(s)

3) output devices per channel

4) lab results from a major magazines

Charles,

I think they are discussion the new Outlaw 755 and 770 amps, which are rated at 200 wpc.

 

[Legairre]

Ricky,

We seem to use the same formula. Labs results from mags count for me too. Of course they could be tainted by how much advertising a company provides, but until I have my own test equipment(which I'll never have) it's all I can go on for now. That's why I posted the above links. Some had good graphs of lab results.

 

[Charles Gurganus]

Ricky, I know they are discussing the new amps. There is some pertenant info on the review that applies to this discussion IMO. In the review they compare the ATI, which has a 2.0 KVA transformer and is rated at 150 wpc (with 8 output devices per channel) to the 750, which has a 1.5 KVA transformer with 6 output devices per channel and is rated at 165 wpc. Isn't it odd that the outlaw is rated for more power in comparrison to the ATI?

Anyway, it will take someone to actually look into the new amps to find out the transformer size. I just find it strange they won't give out this information. I had this same problem with them last year on the 750 and it took that review to actually see the size of the transformer.

I understand Robert's point as well but the specs of the transformer need to be publisized.

 

[Russell _T]

That's what bothers me most. Why won't they just come out and say what it is. It's a very simple and straight forward request. It doesn't matter whether they think it's pertinent or not, it's a spec that should be made available to the consumer. They know and they should tell us. We're going to find out anyway.

Russ

 

[John Morris]

Hmmm, interesting discussion.

Based on the formulas already mentioned, how big must the transformers be on my Crown K2 for it to do 1250w X 2 into 2 ohms or 500w X 2 into 8 ohms? Whatever the case, they must be small transformers since the amp only weighs 38 lbs or so. Does the K2 not require or use large transformers due to the Balanced Current Amplitude methodology that it employs?

 

[Legairre]

merc,
Doesn't the K2 use a completely different technology that the conventional amps we're talking about here. I'm not sure how the K2 technology works or accomplishes it's power, but it's not a conventional amp like other is it? I'm not sure we would be comparing apples to apples with the ATI 2505, Rotel 1095, Outlaw 770 or Parasound 2205. I know there all amps, but the K2 technology gives it a price tag of around 2000 for 2 channels. I think it's way beyond our amps in price and technology. The rest of us have amps that require large power supplies to make their rated power. That K2 just out classes them. It's like putting a Porche up against a mustang. It's hi-fi and our amps are mearly mid-fi.
This a a great thread though. No arguing or bitter feelings. Just people throwing numbers and rasing issues to learn from.
As a side note and a slam on Rotel. I remember a thread about a week ago where Rotel wouldn't give a certain spec on their amps either(I don't remember the spec). I bet that spec isn't to flattering for them either. All companies should give the specs if a buyer request them.
See I'm an equal opportunity whiner.

 

[Harley]

I hope Outlaw doesn't send me the email I was looking for.

Now I have doubts, although I don't fully understand all this, it does raise a red flag, until I feel comfortable with what I'm reading here, my money is staying in the bank.

Harley

 

[Luis M]

Harley,

I am also waiting for that e-mail and the faster you give it up, the faster I get it.

 

[Paul Busby]

Hi all,

I'd like to approach this discussion from a practical point of view. I own an Outlaw 750 which powers my center(JM Lab Electra CC30) and 4 SVS subwoofers(2 16-46s & 2 25-31s). The subs are currently set with a house curve that rises from 0dB at 80Hz to about +11dB at 28Hz. This room curve is above and beyond the SPL meter correction values. The point is I make this amp work hard on occasion with movies or music and I have not run out of power. I play them loud also. For instance, with movies I try to match normal speech levels and on dramatic peaks I have measured 105-110dB peaks from the speakers, and with the bass even louder peaks because of the room curve. It has no problem with this load and barely gets warm even after a movie like Titan AE or music like a Bach Fugue. In fact when I was setting up I managed to get all 4 subs to bottom out at the same time.

Bottom line is I have run out of subwoofers but not out of power

 

[RAF]

Some of you seem to be implying that Outlaw is "hiding" something by not listing every specification in the book. I find this laughable at best, and suspect at worst.

Realize that I'm not addressing these comments to the audiophiles among you who are trying, and have been providing some valuable resources for those who wish to examine the issue of VA's, etc. in more detail. The problem here is that there seem to be parallel discussions going on in this thread. On one side we have a reasonable discussion proceeding that is attempting to enlighten people on the various ways that amplifiers work and are rated. On the other side we have some very insidious comments trying to analyze the motives of a company rather than to analyze their products.

I've come to the realization at this point that for some people this is not about the amps, it is about Outlaw. Luckily, these people are in the minority and the more they rant the more they are exposing themselves regarding their true agendas. A rather simple question has turned into suggestions of a covert operation.

Get real (some) people! Outlaw has provided enough specifications for their new amps to at least give you enough indication whether or not you want to audition them. They state that they will deliver 200W x 5 (or 200W x 7 for the 770) as per all the parameters listed above several times. You are free, if you wish, to audition the equipment and return it if it doesn't meet your needs.

I'm of the opinion that the only person I have to satisfy is me and I let my ears be the final judge. Once the 755/770 is released there will be all the usual in-depth reviews where people will have access to all sorts of bench measurements and other data for those who like to believe what they read more than what they hear. While I can understand the requests of some people for full information regarding any product I can't subscribe to the "they are hiding something" theory that is being proposed here. If they truly wanted to be devious, Outlaw would have resorted to some of the tactics employed by other manufacturers who either use high THD numbers or state their specs for a limited bandwidth (say, 1kHz or similar) instead of 20-20K. I'm old enough to remember the RMS vs. "peak" power ratings from the 50's and 60's that were designed to fool the unsuspecting. My feeling is that some people are trying to make an issue out of a non-issue.

In today's information age (you're taking advantage of it right now if you're reading this) a company can't get away with trying to fool the public. If they were stupid enough to attempt this, they wouldn't survive. We control this with our pocketbooks and that's the bottom line. A unit either performs or it doesn't. The specs published by Outlaw will either hold up in testing or they will not. I'm guessing that someone measured these amps before publishing the specs and didn't just make up numbers. No need to create issues just to hear yourself talk.

As far as I'm concerned "Spec Speak" is often used in place of actual listening. Sometimes numbers can be very misleading. We recently has some discussions on bandwidth for component switching where it was shown that higher bandwidths did not equate to better performance. In fact, it might actually be the other way around. So my philosophy is to use specs as a general guideline, not as a proof of performance.

I'm in the fortunate position to be the first end user to have a 755 in my home thanks to having ordered a 750 when they were discontinued. I'm not a beta tester for the 755 (not needed for an amp) but I definitely like what I hear. I'm pumping out sound into 4 ohm M&K 150 and or 150SS speakers into 7 channels and I can't tell any difference between the 755 stages and my Marantz MA700 monoblocks which have similar specifications. If the 755 was a poorer amp, I'd know it right away (I tried all sorts of combinations). The more I listen, the more I like it.

However, you might think the 755 is a piece of crap. But that's because, after speakers, I consider amps to be one of the most subjective areas in audio. And you are entitled to your opinions as I am entitled to mine. I just hope you will base your purchase decisions on how the equipment sounds to you, and not how good it looks on paper.

Once again, I want to thank all the people here who are honestly contributing to a discussion of power ratings and transformer specifications. Your input is greatly appreciated. To those who continue to try to turn everything into something nefarious, I hope that you realize that most people here are not buying into it. They are smarter than that. And more and more of them are wondering why you don't just move on with your lives. It's a free world (at least here it is) and nobody is forcing you to buy a particular product.

We get the message.

But do you?

 

[Patrick R. Sklenar]

... It doesn't matter whether they think it's pertinent or not, it's a spec that should be made available to the consumer. They know and they should tell us. We're going to find out anyway. ...

Sheesh talk about a sense of entitlement! Russell, this isn't directed just at you since others have suggested the very same thing, but your wording is by far the clearest so far ... Outlaw's a private company. They don't have to tell us a damn thing. If you don't like not knowing some detail before buying a product, speak with your wallet and don't give them your money. But to suggest that they owe it to you, or that they have, to provide these specs ... that's just outright ridiculous.

 

[Brandon B]

Merc -

The curved bulge in the front of your K2 is where the transformer sits. That should give you an idea of its size.

BB

 

[Legairre]

I'm not sure who the above comments are directed to, but I went back and it seems "I" hi-jacked the original discussion. This thread was started with the original poster starting a discussion about why the VA rating wasn't published, not about the technical aspect of power transformer sizes.

I think I may have taken the discussion off course by going in the direction of how large a transformer an amp needs to make it's rated power and listing the size of the transformers of several competing amps. If the Outlaw supporters here have been offended by "me" talking about transformer sizes instead of the original topic of why Outlaw didn't publish the rating. Them I'm guilty as charged.

I also have said that all companies should publish their specs if a current or potential customer request them. I even pointed out that Rotel refused a request for specs from someone on this forum.

 

[Russell _T]

Patrick,

First of all In the past I've made it clear I like Outlaw and their products. And the quote of mine you posted clearly states that they SHOULD publish this commonly used spec. And as a consumer I do believe they should and I'll stand by that. There's no reason not to. It's a reasonable request. You're right though, no one said they have to and they don't if they don't feel like it. It's also been made clear from reading all the millions of Outlaw posts, that anyone who dissents for whatever reason regarding Outlaw on this Forum has some kind of hidden agenda and is immediately slammed not only by other members, but also by the mods. Believe me, I have no hidden agenda and I am not trying to offend you or anyone else. It has been my intention to buy the 950/770 since I talked to Scott about it last March. I would just like to have a pretty good idea what I am going to be spending my $2500.00 on before I pay for the privilege of auditioning it in my home. I think that is more than fair enough. If this discussion has gotten off course on my account, I apologize and will let you get back to it.

Russ

 

[Legairre]

RAF,

I'm not trying to be a clown here. This is an honest question, so don't think I'm being a wise guy or trying to get under your skin. I apologize to everyone for going off topic with this in advance.

You have often said that even though you are a mod we can question you on things without the fear of being banned. Maybe I don't read the right threads, but you do seem to come to the defense of Outlaw products more than others. I realize your human and may suffer from the same feeling all of us get when we buy a product we're happy with. We all try to defend companies we like. But how come you don't seem to defend Rotel or the other companies when they don't publish specs. In another thread people complained about Rotel holding back on a spec and that only the sound matters. When people said the Rotel 1066 had 24/96 DACs and critisized it for them you didn't tell us that the sound is all that matters(even though it wasn't out yet) and who cares what DACS it had as long as it sounds good. You let us go on and on. Even when, I myself went nuts complaining about the Rotel 1066's digital input you let us go on. You even let us go on when Rotel messed up and shipped a product with a hissing problem on the 6.1 input. You only called for us to get back on topic after I asked a member(who refused to answer the question) if he was making his anti Rotel comments, because he was an Outlaw supporter. That member hi-jacked that discussion and repeatedly accused Rotel of being devious and kept us off topic, but you still let us go on.

Do I like rotel products. Yes I do, but I have on several occasions given Rotel hell(yeah I know I made a rhyme) in this forum about some of their products. I try to be fair and complain about a product or manufacturer even if I like that company and/or their products. From your defense of Outlaw and not other manufactureres it does seem that you favor Outlaw.

As a mod are you supposed to be non biased? I don't know the rules for mods. As I said. I'm not being a wise guy on this and I'm not trying to piss you or anyone else off. I'm just asking that you give us hell for going off topic when other companies motives are being discussed as well as when Outlaw's motives are being discussed. Several members have mentioned about leaving HTF, because they don't feel the same rules apply to all discussions anymore. Some members feel that there is one set of rules for Outlaw discussions and another set of rules for non outlaw discussions. I'm sure some will say then "see ya", but many people like it here and just want an even split in the chastising.

Once again I apologize to everyone for going off topic with this.