up conversion, bandwidth, Elite 43TX/45TX, inputs, and MCAAC

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Scott_Jua, Jan 7, 2003.

  1. Scott_Jua

    Scott_Jua Stunt Coordinator

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    I am considering and almost 100% certain that I will get the Pioneer Elite VSX 43TX sometime in the not so distant future. However, in my searching and reading I still have some questions that I have not been able to find a clear answer to.
    1. The bandwidth of the component switching functions. If I remember correctly Pioneer rates the 43TX and 45TX at 40-45mhz bandwidth for the component switching. I have also read various threads on this issue and have a question about the general consensus on what exaclty is "lossless" in a bandwidth view for component switching. By this ramble I mean to ask; will the 43TX's 40-45mhz be enough to view DVD, HD broadcast, and future HD-DVD signals without any loss of PQ or AT LEAST any REAL world noticeable loss?
    a. In this scneario: I have a PS2(S-video), VCR(composite), and DVD player(component), and I hook them up to my receiver (43TX)...do I just need to run Component OUT to my TV to view them all? Will the receiver pump each individual signal to the TV through the component OUT, regardless of the original signal? Assuming this happens (as it would make sense) does the 43TX or any receiver for that matter UP-convert the cruddy signals (composite and S-video) to component? OR does it simply pass their original signal qualities throught the component OUTs to the TV allowing you to view a composite or S-video signal as they are designed but through the one set of component inputs on the TV?
    2. Bewtween the MCAAC on the 43TX and the 45TX is there any real difference between them other than the fact that one calibrates manually and the other does it automatically? Has anyone actually seen/done the manual calibration on the 43TX and compared the results or heard/seen a difference between it and the 45TX? AT this time I can't see why the auto MCAAC would be any more valueable than the manual other than in ultimate convenience...is their a quality or technical aspect I am missing?
    a. Other than the Auto vs Manual MCAAC and perhaps additional input, what was adeciding factor for one (43TX vs 45TX) over the other?
    thanks alot in advance guys...
     
  2. MikeRP

    MikeRP Supporting Actor

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    On the MCACC issue:

    Beleive me - its worth the money. I guarantee you can't do it as well. Its fantastic and a real breakthough.



    Mike
     
  3. Juan_R

    Juan_R Supporting Actor

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    There is no video loss when using the 45TX for component switching.
     
  4. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    The auto MCACC is well worth the extra bucks in and of itself. It can automatically compensate for room acoustics and speaker response characteristics, something that just isn't feasible for the user with an spl meter and AVIA. It made a very noticeable difference in my setup.

    I had a Sony ES with full equalization capability for each speaker and could never get my system to sound as good as the 45tx's auto setup.

    Neither model will do video upconversion, so you may need to run S, composite, and component to the tv.
     
  5. Scott_Jua

    Scott_Jua Stunt Coordinator

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    on MCACC: so even though the technology is supposed to be the same you cannot garner the same results by doing it manually on the 43TX over the auto set up on the 45TX? I was under the impression that the difference was that instead of having the calibration instantaneously made you were "guided" by the receiver as to what changes to input... So we can assume that this is really going to come out different? HAs anyone actually compared the two working?

    Steve (or anyone: So since neither do upconversion...I cannot run a single video signal via component to my TV and have all my different sources routed by the receiver to the TV through that ONE connection? Even if it does not ALTER or UPconvert the signal to a better quality, does it NOT pass on the signal? Does this mean I STILL have to have three types of connection to my TV? What's the point of having video switching at all on a receiver if it won't do this? I hope that's not the case as it would be quite dissapointing. I was hoping for simplicity in use for the user... or are "Macros" on a remote the receiver MFGs hopes to overcome this shortcoming...IF I understand correctly?

    I was hoping to just be able to use one knob to select viedo sources without farting around with the TV's input selection...
     
  6. Scott_Jua

    Scott_Jua Stunt Coordinator

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    very curious about an answer to this...
     
  7. Steve Owen

    Steve Owen Second Unit

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    Read this thread for an exhaustive discussion regarding the benefits (and potential pitfalls) of MCACC.
    A word of warning though... it seems to be a fairly emotional subject.
    -Steve
     
  8. Scott_Jua

    Scott_Jua Stunt Coordinator

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    what about the input and video switching issues?

    Thanks for the link on MCACC, I'll check it
     
  9. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    Scott,

    The Denon 3803 will accept composite, S-video, and component video and pass any of the three through it's component video outputs. The only Pioneer that will do this is the VSX49TX. Several of the Kenwood Sovereign models will also do it. There may be other makes/models with this capability.

    The remote that comes with the 45tx has a dedicated TV input selection button (emulates the input button on the tv remote) so I don't have to grab a second remote when switching the tv from S video to component or composite. It's also a learning remote that can do macros, so you could program it to change tv inputs for you when you select different inputs on the receiver. I know this isn't as slick as having the receiver convert video source types, and you still have to run separate composite, S, and component cables to the tv.

    On the overall subject of remotes, I've had 3 or 4 receivers with "universal remotes" but the Pioneer's is the only one I've encountered that can actually easily (almost instinctively) control my whole system.
     
  10. Scott_Jua

    Scott_Jua Stunt Coordinator

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    so basically by using the macros on your remote, would you say it's a seemless swithc between sources?

    I'm still debating if it's worth waiting for Pioneer to come out with the next models in it's elite line... But I need a receiver now more than later...
     
  11. Andrew_B

    Andrew_B Stunt Coordinator

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    Well, I don't know about seemless switching. It certainly wasn't my experiencewhen I tried to use macros to control everything. Without knowing the current state of all of the hardware, there is no way to know for sure that a macro will do what you are expecting. For example, my TV has 3 inputs and 2 antennas. When I hit the Input button on my TV it goes through the inputs in the following order:
    1. Antenna A (Digital Cable)
    2. Input 1 (VCR)
    3. Input 2 (DVD)
    4. Input 3 (Xbox)
    5. Antenna B (Analog Cable)

    I used to have a macro to play when I wanted to watch a DVD. Since IR macros really are stupid I had to make sure that all of my macros were based on the TV being on the Digital Cable input. So, my DVD macro sent the "change TV input" code twice. My XBOX macro send the "change TV input 3 times". I could not have a single "return to Digial Cable mode macro" because there was no way to know if I was trying to "return to Digital Cable" from the DVD input (which would have required a "change TV input 3 times") or if I was coming from the Xbox input (which would need a "change TV input 2 times"). So now I had 2 macros to return to TV mode, one for the Xbox and one for DVD. When I started to think about macros for the VCR, I would need even more. VCR->DVD, VCR->Xbox, VCR->TV, DVD->VCR....what a pain. It was then that I decided that video upconversion was GOOD and that my next receiver would have to have it.
     
  12. Brae

    Brae Supporting Actor

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    For the VXS-43TX
    For the VSX-45TX
    Each of the above links allows you to gain access to the owner's manuals for these respective products. Do yourself a favor and browse/read them.
    Answer to 1a)
    Neither of these two receiver have the ability to convert composite or s-video to component video. If you have three different signals then you'll be running three different video paths from the receiver to your display unit.
    Answer to 2a)
    I personally felt that the MCACC was best represented by its ability to automate the process of calibrating one's system to their environment. If you are going to take the 43TX for a manual MCACC then just save a buck more and not consider MCACC at all. Maybe the 41TX would be best for you?
    Not trivializing the MCACC feature, but if you are going to do it then do it right and make life simple. If you are looking for video conversion (to convert composite/s-video to cmoponent) to save on the number of cables to the display or simply make having to switch inputs on the display less of a chore then consider a competing product.
    I think that it appears that you are trying to weigh-down the MCACC in order to spend less, and also looking strnogly for a more simlpified video solution. Not sure if this is what the case is. Maybe the Denon AVR-3803 is more your calling, but you can decide that. Also, that manual is available here.
    If you have more specific questions regarding the 45TX feel free to ask them. I have several threads on AVS, too. Have a good one! [​IMG] BTW, I own the 45TX and love it!
     
  13. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    I'd agree, if you're not going for the auto MCACC, and running only one set of component cables to your display is your goal, get the Denon 3803.

    I have no WAF, and don't mind pushing a couple of buttons to switch inputs on my tv, but have a really oddly shaped room with weird acoustics, so the Auto MCACC was more important to me than video upconversion.

    When I originally decided to upgrade from 5.1 to 6.1/7.1 the first reciever I considered was the 3803 because of that upconversion. Then I did some reading about the MCACC, decided my weird acoustics were more of a problem than having to switch inputs on the tv.

    If one needs to keep things as simple as possible as far as video switching due to the WAF, and your room isn't as weird as mine, the Denon is a very nice piece and you won't be dissapointed.
     
  14. Scott_Jua

    Scott_Jua Stunt Coordinator

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    Thanks guys...
    you're right I'm looking to spend less of course, but not at the expense of functionality. Perhaps my understanding of MCACC was not as good when posting my original questions. I have since downloaded the manual for the 43TX and the set up on it just makes my head swim. There's no point paying for it if I don't use it, and more likely if it's not automated I'll be too lazy to set it up correctly. I just want to plug and play, I want to enjoy my movies more than tweaking into infinity. I think the auto MCACC is worth it after reading as much as I can on it.
    Having that said there's the question of ease of use still. I know the Denon features a few more things in this area that the Pioneer doesn't. So my next big question is WHEN will the Pioneer Elite line encorporate things like all signal conversion in their low to mid level Elite receivers? Because I still think there's alot of value in the MCACC, especially in my weird room, and even more...I like the sound of the Pioneers better than the Denons.
    I guess I could live without it though...I have been doing so for the past years, so I guess I can go without. That's left to be determined of course, unless there's news out there on NEW Elire receivers and their capabilities. [​IMG]
    Andrew, I see what you mean about the macros...sound like a headache.
    on the 45TX, does it have any sort of clipping protection? Does it limit signals that it send to speakers that could be damaging, and if so is it adjustable/how does it work???
     
  15. Brae

    Brae Supporting Actor

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    Someone posted this in another group, which they got from a 3rd group, hehe. Take it with a grain of salt and questionability:

    "Room-Tunning is Key to New Pioneer Receivers. Set surround parameters for your unique room size and shape
    Las Vegas, NV January 08, 2003

    Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc. introduced today its new 2003 line of digital audio/video receivers, including the VSX-D912-K, VSX-D812-K, VSX-D712-K and VSX-D412-K, all designed to give consumers the ultimate control over their home entertainment experience.

    With multi-channel music and movies driving sales of DVD players, consumers are adding five, six, and seven speaker configurations to their home theater systems. As a result, Pioneer continues to develop new audio/video receivers with features to enhance the home theater environment. Three of the new receivers offer Multi-Channel Acoustic Calibration (MCACC), allowing consumers the ability to accurately set-up their speakers with optimal performance based on the room environment.

    "Our new line of audio/video receivers takes multi-channel music and movies to the next level by providing consumers an easy way to get the most accurate surround sound experience available," said Craig McManis, vice president of marketing for the Home Entertainment Division of Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc. "The calibration feature has been a phenomenal success in our Elite reference receivers, and now we're offering this new technology in our Pioneer line."

    Consumers who don't have a keen ear often find it challenging to calibrate all the speakers in a surround sound system. Auto calibration in the VSX-D912-K uses a microphone to automatically set speaker distance and levels without requiring the consumer to rely on their own listening skills.

    The VSX-D912-K, VSX-D812-K and VSX-D712-K include Dolby Digital EX™ and DTS-ES™ decoding, which adds sound to the rear center speakers, while left and right surround information is reproduced by the side speakers. The addition of a new surround channel and use of one or two additional speakers allows true "fly-over" and "fly-around" effects that are more accurately placed, either directly behind or directly beside the listener.

    All models feature Pioneer's 5-channels of equal, high-power amplification (VSX-D912-K and VSX-D812-K contain 6 channels of amplification) which provides 100-watts of amplifier power to each channel, eliminating the possibility of one channel dominating a particular sound field. All five amplifiers are of discrete configuration and utilize Pioneer's hybrid amplification system to ensure that the correct amount of bias signal is applied to each transistor for very low distortion. Pioneer's amplifiers are designed to handle the full bandwidth of Dolby Digital, DTS, and DVD-Audio encoded software.

    Component and S-video switching are provided in the VSX-D712-K, VSX-D812-K, and VSX-D912-K allowing both progressive and interlaced NTSC and HDTV signals to be passed to the television or monitor. To maintain future compatibility, all of the receivers have multiple, assignable digital inputs (both coaxial and optical).

    Finally, all new models come with either a standard remote or a preset/learning remote and Quick Setup feature for easy room setup. The Quick Setup feature walks the consumer through the process of choosing the number of speakers connected and selecting the room size for very easy and accurate surround sound performance when utilizing the MCACC function is not desired.

    The new VSX-D912-K receiver will be available in March at a suggested retail price of $475.

    Specifications VSX-D912-K
    Amplification 110 watts x 6
    Multi-Channel Acoustic Calibration yes Auto(w/microphone) yes
    Dolby Digital yes
    DTS yes
    Dolby Digital EX yes
    DTS ES yes
    DTS 96/24 yes
    Dolby Pro Logic II yes
    NEO 6 yes
    DVD-Audio Ready yes
    Component Video Switching yes
    Assignable digital inputs 5
    Front panel 1A/1V/1 optical
    A/V inputs 4A4 A/V
    S-Video inputs 4 in 2 out
    Independent A and B speakers with large banana binding posts yes
    7.1 channel inputs yes
    All channel pre-outs yes
    96/24-bit DAC yes
    Double precision 8-bit Motorola DSP yes

    Manufacturer’s Suggested retail price $475
    Availability March"
     
  16. Darin J

    Darin J Extra

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    I didn't believe the information on the upcoming Pioneer VSX receivers so I went to the Pioneer newsroom and what to you know, its true. Here's the link Pioneer Press Room
     

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