Universal players w/ analog bass management

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Keith AP, Nov 4, 2002.

  1. Keith AP

    Keith AP Extra

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    Anyone know of any players out there that perform bass management on DVD-Audio/SACD sources and output through their 5.1 analog connections. I want to avoid the additional purchase of something like the Outlaw ICBM to give me the signal I need.
     
  2. Bryce Miner

    Bryce Miner Stunt Coordinator

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    I'm only aware of the pioneer 45a. I do have to boost the subwoofer line out though to match proper levels. Great player, buy it!
     
  3. John-Miles

    John-Miles Screenwriter

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    I may be wrong but the Yamaha s2300 and onkyo sp800 come to mind.
     
  4. Brian Burgoyne

    Brian Burgoyne Second Unit

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    Keith, I think a lot of us are wondering the same thing. Like John said, the Yamaha and Onkyo are coming out with universal players any time now, so we'll have to see what some of the first buyers have to say about them. I would like to get something in the next couple of months. It would make a nice Christmas present to myself.[​IMG]
     
  5. Keith AP

    Keith AP Extra

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    Yeah, Brian, we're both thinking the same thing.

    Bryce, a few questions if you know:

    - What crossover frequency is used (80, 100, 120Hz) for the bass management in the 45A for DVD-Audio/SACD? I don't care about the DVD-Video as my receiver will take care of that.

    - Why do you think the subwoofer boost is required? Do you only see this when applying bass management to the DVD-Audio/SACD - or with the full range too?

    - Is there an electronic manual (PDF?) available online?
     
  6. Bryce Miner

    Bryce Miner Stunt Coordinator

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    120 hz, I believe. You can read the thread on setting up the 45a. It deals with this needed sub out gain. Is a non issue when you use the internal decoding. (dd/dts) I haven't seen this manual available yet at pioneerelectronics.com
     
  7. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    1. Unknown, but it appears to be between 100 and 120Hz. I measured with SpectraPLUS and that's about where it seems to be.

    2. The bass level issue appears to apply to all sources, although I lack SACD and DVD-A test tones at the moment. Using Avia to set levels, ALL formats sound very weak in the bass without a boost. There are other threads here and elsewhere that discuss this issue with players from Sony, Denon, and Pioneer. It seems to be affecting a lot of players.

    3. Last I looked the manual was not on line.

    All that aside, if your rig allows you to balance levels properly, its a kick-ass player.

    One thing I was not expecting, but was pleasantly surprised about was the player letter boxing. I have always owned Sony DVD players, which are known to have very good in-player letterboxing. As such, I was expecting the 45A to come up short.

    Not so. I plugged her in to the same input the Sony was connected to, and was blown away by the picture. I did not even re-calibrate...its that good. The picture is cleaner, and appears more 3 dimensional. Fine detail is outstanding.

    Can't wait for the 53" Pioneer Widescreen to show up tomorrow! I can only imagine how that will look with the progressive outputs from the 45A.

    BL
     
  8. Rich Malloy

    Rich Malloy Producer

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    It's now being reported on the AVS Forum that the new Philips 963SA has selectable crossovers at 60hz, 80, 100, and 120. This is from someone who's purchased a unit in the Netherlands (I believe) - the 963 won't be released in the US until first quarter 2003.

    (BTW, this is a DVD/SACD/Upsampling-CD player. No DVD-A.)
     
  9. LanceJ

    LanceJ Producer

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    "Using Avia to set levels, ALL formats sound very weak in the bass without a boost."
    "Why do you think the subwoofer boost is required?"
    "I do have to boost the subwoofer line out though to match proper levels."
    And......
    "It seems to be affecting a lot of players."
    Seems as if the audio basics are getting buried under all this super-duper HT techno stuff [​IMG].
    1) Remember "loudness" buttons on receivers and many preamps back in the olden days (hehe)? Those really handy circuits that boost the low bass and upper treble at low volume levels because of the human ear's insensitivity to those frequency extremes at those low volume levels?
    2) Test tones usually consist of a mixture of all audible frequencies. When testing mains, centers or surrounds you can hear sounds from 20kHz down to whatever your 5.1 processor has them cutoff at (80Hz, 60Hz, etc.). The sub gets what's left over, 80-60Hz down to its lower limit. In other words, a much smaller percentage of the total frequency spectrum for you to hear or measure compared to the other channels.
    Put the two above effects together and you get what's perceived as a malfunctioning LFE channel. My solution? Put away the "test disc" and RatShak sound meter, put on some music or a movie you know well, turn up the main volume to your normal listening level and THEN set your LFE levels-the sub's, the receiver's, whatever-to whatever sounds correct. There, you're done!
    While I personally don't own a sub, I've helped others with theirs and never bothered using that test tone for the LFE channel-its useless for me. And I constantly read posts where people complain during such-n-such movie or surround music disc the center was too prominent, or the rears were barely audible, etc, etc. I guess this sounds like HT heresy, but how about this solution: adjust those channels so you CAN hear them correctly so they don't bother you. What's the big deal??? Do people think Steven Speilberg or George Lucas have spying devices built-in to their DVDs that alert them to "subversive channel volume adjustments"? [​IMG]
    Just let your ears be the final judge.
    LJ
     
  10. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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  11. DaleBesh

    DaleBesh Stunt Coordinator

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    "...adjust those channels so you CAN hear them correctly so they don't bother you. What's the big deal??? Do people think Steven Speilberg or George Lucas have spying devices built-in to their DVDs that alert them to "subversive channel volume adjustments"? "
    Good for you! I like that! I guess we are so accustomed to electronic processing controlling our listening preferences, the idea of tweaking anything resembling a tone control appears foreign to our experience. Adjust it to our 'taste'? Not some predetermined calibrated level? [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  12. LanceJ

    LanceJ Producer

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    If it wasn't for tone controls, several CDs/DVDs I own would be almost unlistenable: Emmylou Harris' Wrecking Ball-the vocal track is the screechiest/grainiest I have ever heard. On some Klipsch La Scala's this album was scary-you could use it to cut hair!; Groove Armada's Vertigo and Eric Johnson's Ah Via Musicom. Both have very bright high ends (lots of pop stuff is this way on purpose since many younger listeners only have little $50 boomer boxes with no tweeters to hear music on; my DVD of "Earthquake" is very anemic sounding-but with my bass control I can simulate some of that "Sensurround" rumble from the original theatrical release (my bass control is centered at a low 50Hz).
    LJ
     
  13. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    I believe that the 47ai also has BM for all formats.
    I also believe that some people have the BM low LFE "problem" with the 45a (and 47ai, and other players), but some have not too (like me [​IMG] ).
    I used Avia on the analog outputs of the player, and compared the players settings with "matched" levels to the pre/pro's settings required to get matched levels with Avia using a digital DD feed.
     

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