Universal HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players: Absolutely the WORST thing that could happen? (1 Viewer)

[PeterTHX]

Of course. That's why I didn't rabidly bite your head off in a blind rant

 

[Ryan-G]

I suppose that's true, but as I've posited before on this subject, even a universal player will eventually lead to HD-DVD's demise. At some point, replications costs and royalties will balance out such that the only major difference is capacity, at that point, DL BR is the better choice in every case.

Now when that would happen is open to guesses, but eventually it'd happen.

Of course, there's still plenty of time, and Sony's recently shown an amazing ability to shoot itself in the foot. Between PS3 pricing and Mpeg2 BR launch, they're really doing everything possible to screw up BR adoption. The only thing left for them to do is announce that the remainder of releases for this year will consist of...

Gigli
Ishtar
Battlefield Earth
and the Uwe Boll complete collection

Outside of that, they've pretty much got it covered.

 

[Nick]

I absolutely agree. We won't know the answer until they release the recorders. Right now there's just no other recording devices to record HD content besides a handful of Digital HD recorders. In my personal opinion. I think whoever can offer more recording spaces will win.
I know Sony is having problem with their Dual layer disc. Just like everything else being invented and tested in the lab, but I'm pretty sure the problem will be gone before they release it to the market.

I'm glad that there's two formats so both of them will better themselves and drive the price down in order to win us over. But it's unfortunate that some of us will ended up with Betamax.

 

[Mark Zimmer]

I do think the format war is making both sides put out a better product (and on Toshiba's side, a less expensive product), so I'm happy to see it drag on for a while. Can you imagine what PQ we'd be stuck with on BD if we didn't have HD-DVD to compare it to?

 

[Andrew Bunk]

Sort of releated to the capacity issue, what is the longest running film on dual-layer HD-DVD right now? I would think Last Samurai, Cinderella Man and Apollo 13 are all close to 2.5 hours. I'm just wondering what will happen to PQ with a 3 hour plus film (like King Kong) on dual layer HD-DVD. Could this be why we haven't seen that title yet?

 

[ChrisMatson]

I agree completely.

I think that universal players make sense for hardware manufacturers, but don't address the basic problem of having two competing software formats.

Retailers are not going to like stocking two or three copies of each title (DVD, HD-DVD, and BD). Do they stock them together on one shelf, confusing J6P or do they need three different display areas?

Studios are not going to see the economic sense in publishing for both new formats.

I see the situation playing out in this manner:
Driven by improved BD manufacturing, adoption of HDMI 1.3, and 5+ million PS3s shipped over the next year, all studios will support BD at which time HD-DVD becomes unnecessary.

 

[Grant H]

The Format Wars raped my adulthood!!

Somebody had to say it.

Seriously, I think the gun has been jumped by a lot of people, especially the BD doomsayers. From my understanding, based on the experiences with the ONE available player and a handful of SONY titles that look like junk compared to the other studios' offerings (and why SHOULDN'T we have expected that?), the major PQ issues are related to a problem with the HDMI output on the Samsung and poorly mastered Sony software.

That says nothing for the format itself. The other players have been pushed out, likely in hopes of working out the bugs before they hit the market, but obviously somebody had to get a player out based on how many people seemingly want to pick a format based on which one is on store shelves first.

As far as VC-1, if HD-DVD doesn't win the war or starts to look like it might not, the royalty fees will likely come down (Microsoft has to sell to someone). And if using VC-1 becomes integral to winning the Format War, I would think BD would start using it anyway.

Funny how the HD-DVD problems that were rampant upon its launch so quickly vanished from so many memories. Granted, I think BD's problems (or at least the player and some of the software) may be more significant, but I remember plenty of people being unhappy with the performance of their HD-DVD players until that firmware fix came out.

Patience.

Is it any wonder BD is a little behind? A lot more construction was involved in that format since it wasn't based so heavily on the existing DVD format. The ability to get to market faster has always been HD-DVD's greatest strength. If BD can actually be superior in the long run, it would be ashame to get stuck with a lesser HD format just because it got their first.

How many people marry their first girlfriend or boyfriend? And is it usually a good idea to do so?

 

[Austan]

The title says it all... Good thing is that it will take a while for a Universal Player to become available. IMHO, the cost associated with dual format is prohibitive at this present moment and the near future. Hopefully, by the time they get to market, a clear winner would have emerge.

 

[Travis Hedger]

How is it funny? A lot of the problems have been fixed with a firmware update. The picture delivered is excellent. I have yet to update the firmware as I havent had any issues with mine yet. But those problems are mere annoyances which have been addressed. Had HD DVD shipped titles with comparable quality of current BR, there would be blood in the streets. And paying only $500 for such excellent picture helps. I would be hopping mad if I spent $1000 and the first wave of titles looked like it did with current offerings.

I believe BR can do much better, but Sony needs to get its act together with better encoding or just switching to VC1.

 

[RobertR]

BD isn't behind on picture quality because "more construction was involved". It's behind because of Sony's attitude about MPEG2 and refusing to acknowledge VC-1 is better, and thinking half-assed efforts are "good enough". People are showing they aren't.

 

[JeremyErwin]

Is it?

 

[Walter Kittel]

Overview of VC-1

VC-1 has demonstrated its capabilities with shorter run time features on single layer 15GB HD DVD combo discs such as Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. Why Sony elected to use MPEG2 is anyone's guess.

- Walter.

 

[Ed St. Clair]

This is from the self appointed "Uni Guy", so take it with a ton of sea salt!
I'm for ultra-multi's because;
1. I was against a format war, therefore NEVER wanted to support one side or the other.
2. Uni's would allow a neutral HD fan, to enjoy the war.
3. I want a uni cause I don't know how long it would take to release titles of the losing format on the winning format.

Anyway, you fine folks are against uni's and don't wish to hear about them, just that I'm super happy to get news like this;
http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/06/21/sa...mat_hd_player/
"If we launch a universal player it will be the end of this year or early next year."
WoW
However, I'm NOT holding my breath, as I still think the first will be 2Q '07.

 

[Austan]

Then 2 days later, Samsung changes their stance on a Universal Player:
GIZMODO

For a person who doesnt want to support the war, are you ready to pay at least $1200 for a Universal Player? Think about it... In other linked articles, Toshiba is subsidizing at least $200 for the HD-A1 and the cheapest Blu-Ray besides the PS3 (which Sony is subsidizing) is $999. The HD-DVD drive is roughly $200... So if Samsung adds a HD-DVD drive to the BD-P1000 it would cost at least $1200 plus licenses fees to HD-DVD.

Because there is a Format going on, there's a lot of subsidizing on both camps, if it's clear that there is no winner, then these subsidies will stop. If one format wins, then the economies of scale with mass production will reduced the price of the winning format. I would prefer this war to end as quickly as possible.

 

[Nick]

Like someone said earlier in this thread. It just doesn't make sense that studios want to release the same movie on two different format and can be played on the same machine (with dual format player).

 

[PeterTHX]

I said as much recently on another thread. I talk to the Samsung people often (company management & engineering, NOT sales reps) and they told me that they were just considering a combo unit down the line, and that was all.

On that note I talked today to the television folks, they were surprised when I pointed out their DLP TVs do not support Dolby Digital over HDMI, only PCM...which is something most of their competition offers. If the 2007 models offer this, you'll know who to thank.

 

[Ryan-G]

I think there's some fuzzy math going on in there. Looks like someone's not considering the whole picture, and is just adding the prices of the two units together.

1. There's the obvious reduction in cost because you only need 1 case instead of 2, and the mechanical parts like motorized drawer, display and such.

2. Both HD-DVD and BR seem to use the same "Decoder" chips, as Samsung BR and Toshiba HD-DVD use the same one limiting them both to 1080i, as such, only one chip is needed. Reduction in cost.

3. Toshiba's unit is a P4 computer running Linux. Expensive way to make a player, given P4's pricing. That's at least a $100 chip, probably more.

4. No reason for two CPU type chips, use two sets of Bios type memory, and auto-boot the correct "OS" depending on the disc inserted. Reboot if a different one is inserted. Since the Tosh units are already using a pretty heft amount of memory, no major loss here.

I'd suspect that a Uni-Player would only end up a couple hundred more than a standard Player for BR. Given the time-frame in question, I really don't see why it couldn't hit at $1000 or under, since we're talking nearly a year away.

Plus, the PS3 is a very bad example, as what Sony is subsidizing is the expensive Cell processor, Rambus memory, and GPU, since they're special purpose chips not in mainstream use, so there's little driving the costs down. IIRC the BR portion was only something around $200 of the cost. The majority of PS3's cost is Cell, Rambus, and GPU.

As Tosh has shown, mainstream Intel/AMD chips can handle the job, and both of them are getting hefty price cuts now(In contrast to when Tosh bought the ones in their player). I'm sure Intel would love to dump a load of Prescotts at a low cost to a buyer, and they can easily be underclocked to even do passive cooling and still handle the job since it'd be special purpose use.

 

[Austan]

I think we all post and re-post the same things over and over on various threads. I used the same links to defend my opinions and instead of getting a counter, I see the same old debate brought up again on a different thread.

Non-licenses holders make their money through sales margins of their products. Prices mentioned are "as of today"... If today, Samsung sells the BD-P1000 for $1000 and it cost $200 for a HD-DVD drive, then its safe to say the price will be at least $1200 plus license fees to HD-DVD. The link article says "launch a universal player it will be the end of this year or early next year". So that means they need to buy the parts now to manufacture the finished product. You dont buy the parts the day before a product is launch. Especially since both of these formats are new and there is lots R&D to be done. And why would Samsung under cut a product that they are currently trying to sell?

Just state the facts we have today and dont introduce tangents to confuse the situation and stop trying to flame by using words like "FUZZY". I will no longer get into pissing matches on these threads. Both camps are subsidizing their formats (links have been provided in other threads). To what extent, we do not know. I dont even try to suggest that Sony is some how subsidizing the other Blu-Ray players by reduced license fee because I have no evidence (OK, I snuck one in ). All I can say is that if there is a Universal player, both camps will stop the subsidies because they dont want the other side to succeed.

Time changes everything. Lets just wait to see if LG launches a Universal Player or which stance Samsung stands by. Until then, its all a guessing game. Prices are high and will continue to stay there until HD media becomes mainstream.

The whole point to my post was that if you dont want to participate in the format war, you will pay a higher price because the cost of a Universal Player will be higher and the manafacturing cost of 2 formats will cost more due to lower sales volume of each format and reduced subsidies.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I don't agree.

Firstly,

I don't agree with Bob that the "universal SACD/DVD-A" players is what stalled the format war. That's ludicrous.


Secondly, if *all* advanced-audio disc players had been universal, the war would have been MOOT and the consumers would have felt save to buy in.


Same with HD media. IMO, if a unified format can't be obtained and *if* both formats show signs of viability, then a widespread adoption of universal players would actually render the war moot and give the consumer a safe purchase choice.


The only thing that makes this format war different IMO is that once BD 50 gig manufacture comes into play and VC1/AVC encoding takes off on BD, HD DVD will have no more advantages. With only Universal not releasing on BD (and many more studios not releasing on HD DVD), HD DVD will wither away as studios shift over to BD production.

That's all assuming that 50 gigs get here by the end of the year... along with advanced video coded authoring on BD!

-dave

 

[Walter Kittel]

That argument cuts both ways. *IF* Sony can't get BD50 operational in a commercially viable manner, there will be little reason to support Blu-ray.

( Studios and manufacturers can certainly shift support to HD DVD also. )

- Walter.