Unbiased CRT vs DLP. (1 Viewer)

[Levesque]

Posted by Leo Kerr:

"Look at JVC's D-ILA projectors. They have some that'll do true 1920x1080; they also have a variety of smaller ones, in a full range of brightnesses.
They aren't cheap - I think the cheapest ones start at about $9000, but they have an image stability that DLP and CRT can't touch."

I've seen the Sharp 12k and the Marantz S3 in action, and I did choose the JVC D-ILA HX1U.

I completely agree with Leo here. The smoothness and film-like picture of the HX-1U was better to my eyes then those 2 ''high-end'' single chip DLP's. Color dynamics are incredible on the HX-1U.

CR is not everything. I didn't found the difference in black levels between the S3 and HX-1U to be has dramatic has everyone would put it.

No dithering, no headaches, no rainbows, no screendoor, and I start to see the pixel structure at only 4-5 feet from my screen.

3 chip design

 

[Leo Kerr]

Mantra on: single chip is bad. Mantra off.

A second to the comment above on long-term maintenance of CRTs. At work, we've got a couple of old Sony VPH-1001 (something like that) CRT projectors. After some initial settling, they require very little maintenance - once every year or so

but remember! this maintenance every other year comes at the end of their useful lives. Most of these projectors we have in use have been running 8-10 hours/day for 10 years now. Consider that as 8 years of zero maintenance.

But also remember... these are NTSC only projectors - heck; most of 'em don't even have S-video ports.



Though if you want a DLP projector that'll smoke any other DLP projector on the market, as well as any CRT projector on the market, take a look at the Christie CP2000.

3x 2048x1080 DLP D-Cinema "Black" chips,
20,000 ANSI Lumens (yes, twenty thousand)
1700:1 contrast
65% vertical lens offset (maximum)
52% horizontal lens offset (maximum)
400 pounds

http://www.christiedigital.com/produ...00Overview.asp


Saw one a couple months ago, running at very low power - only about 8,000 ANSI... Looked very nice. And cheap, too - only about $125,000, sans lens.

Leo Kerr
[email protected]

 

[Joseph Bolus]

Leo,
I know you're being a little facetious with that Christie CP2000 post; but since you brought it up, you need to be aware of the fact that Infocus has introduced a true 3-chip DLP consumer projector: The Infocus Screenplay 777:

http://www.infocushome.com/amer/eng/...play/sp777.asp

The projector costs around $25,000; but that's still $100,000 less than the CP2000. It features 3 720p DMD's, 3000:1 CR, 2000 lumens, and no color wheel.

 

[ChrisWiggles]

It is with this that I disagree. I think that the people who strive for the best PQ, will easily spend the time to do a basic setup of a CRT that will easily equal a DLP. And don't think that a digital is plug-n-play either, there is no such thing in any projector.

Having just setup a Marquee last night, that took about 30 minutes (VERY rough setup), on a poor wrinkled screen, I can state with confidence that a crappy CRT setup will still look stunning, and far more stunning than what joe 6pack will achieve with an out-of the box entry level pj.

I don't mean to belittle your X1 either, but there is really no comparison between that and an HD2+ unit or good CRT. And be clear also, my bias is not towards CRT because I own two CRTs, but my bias is price. And for the price of dollars, it's still not beaten. But I do realize the added cost of time and effort that may be necessary to get the most out of a CRT, but then again, it is not *necessary* to do that either, but it is an option. Honestly, I would *prefer* an HD2+ DLP in my theater, even though I don't like the PQ quite as much if I'm being very picky, because of the size factor. I have VERY low ceilings. But I simply can't afford it, there's no way. What I could afford would be something like an X1, and it's not really a fair comparison, unfortunately. Though I would still be very happy with an X1, because my technophile leanings go away the instant the film starts.

I firmly believe any common guy with a little gumption can setup a CRT properly. And given more time, he can learn to do a full setup including beam focus and such, lens flapping, etc. But basic gun aim, focus, and convergence is very easy to do, and very intuitive to get a great picture, IMO. And it's not dangerous either, like astig and such.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

See?

 

[Leo Kerr]

The problem with the Infocus 3-chip DLP is it's cost. For $25,000, I'm gonna get a D-ILA projector.

But I did see the CP-2000 in action, and it's a fine projector.

Leo Kerr

 

[Bruce McDermott]

Where are people getting this "CRT projectors need to be 'calibrated' every 6 months" nonsense? I've seen/heard this repeated endlessly (although never by an actual CRT user, I must add).

It's not true, unless by "calibration" you mean 10 minutes of electronic touch-up in the service menu.

I have an 8" EM focus CRT front projector, and, as Chris has said more diplomatically, but nontheless meaning no offense, for a cinematic HT experience it is leagues beyond an X1, and clearly to marginally better than any single-chip DLP HD2+ projector I've seen. And mine is not even liquid-coupled.

At least for the theater-type DVD experience. For bright HD events, it's quite close.

But the price wasn't.

My advice--don't be blinded by contrast ratio, lumens, and similar numbers. Trust your own eyes, and test the products in light as close as possible to the light your theater is going to have.

 

[ChrisWiggles]

I just watched about 3 nights in a row of movies on my very temporary MArquee 8500 setup, and wow. I'd forgotten how stunning these things are. I would be wary to put any 8in EM unit above an HD2+ unit though. For instance mine, being non-LC, and not color filtered, would be much closer to an HD2+ unit. In my opinion, I'd still go for the CRT, because of MY preferences, but at this level of digital, they are getting very good, and someone with slightly different preferences could easily prefer the HD2+. The rainbows and screen door bother me more on the DLP than ANSI cr weaknesses in the CRT and slightly off color primaries. CRTs do need to have convergence tweaked periodically, but this takes just a few minutes, and is quite easy. Way way easier than the originial setup.

Bruce, what setup do you have? I will soon be mounting my 808 on my ceiling. I must resist the urge to stack these two projectors together... .

 

[Bruce McDermott]

I've got an XG75. Set-up by Doug Baisey. Scaled with a Lumagen Vision.

Doug's coming up here again soon with my just purchased, beta version Lumagen HDPro, which he will have explored at his leisure before plumbing it in my system. On the first set-up, he got the mechanical right, but basically no convergence beyond that, no gray-scale, etc. Still looks pretty awesome. I've tweaked since then through the remote for fun, but I'm looking forward to having him finish this baby off...

You were right (you had recommended him over on avs, as had about a billion others). He knows what he is doing.

With the exception of the halo effect, as I said I like the cinematic DVD experience better on my XG than on any HD2+ projector I've seen. The Sharp 12000 came the closest, and in some ways was better. Just not the ways that matter as much to me as others, I suppose. Except for the halos--none on the 12000 of course. They don't really happen much (most movies go by without noticing them at all), but they bug me when they do. A CRT's blacks are so darn nice it's a shame if anything diminishes them.

Right now, interestingly, the weakest link in my chain is the damn screen--too many folds. Panning shots ripple, and I HATE that. Looks like a tensioned electric is next. Yikes.

 

[ChrisWiggles]

Yes, bruce, the HD2+ are very nice, but I do agree with you, in terms of cinematic pleasure its just not quite the same. Its SD and rainbows that drove me nuts the most. You can probably read the whole blogs at avs if you haven't already, about the XGLC and G70 versus sharp 12K shootout. The depth achieved on a CRT is magical as well. After seeing the sharp again in a totally black cave (velvet everywhere), the depth was better, still not as good i don't think, but then the rainbows were TOTALLY driving me nuts. But i think with an ulfiltered non-Lc 8in EM it would be about a dead heat, with preferences taking the cake. With filtered LC, I think if PQ is the primary concern, there are still more pluses in the CRT column. Not to mention price being way less too.

I'm now just waiting on getting my computer put together and my barco mounted, then it will be sweet. My marquee has a little wear, so it's not quite there, but damn it's incredible anyway.

 

[Bruce McDermott]

The funny thing is, I don't see rainbows without trying, but I sure as heck do get headaches on all single chip DLPs I've been in front of for any length of time. I wonder whether it is possible to get a headache from rainbows you only rarely see? Or maybe it's something else causing them? The power of suggestion is strong, I know, but I did see a big bucks set-up at Magnolia Hi-Fi recently when hardly anyone was in the store and was having fun trying to guess the projector from the screen only (with no looking up). I had it pretty well figured out from the dark scenes alone (and also from the fact that I knew the chances that Magnolia would actually have a CRT on its ceiling were small), but the headache confirmed it--DLP.

I can watch a CRT for 2-3 hours with no pain at all, but put me in front of a DLP FP and within an hour at most I've got a headache.

I read the avs blogs with interest. Mostly, they were what I had found myself, with the exception of some of the observations on Guy's LC. But perhaps at least some of those had to do with the fix he later discovered he needed.

At their best, the DLPs have gotten to a point more or less equal (depending on preferences) to a good 8" for at least double the street price, and no more, and probably less, longevity--I've got a thousand + hours on blue and red, and only a bit over 100 on green, so I expect to get at least the longevity of a new Sharp, for example.

But progress marches on. We'll see where we are in another couple years....

 

[ChrisWiggles]

YEah, to be honest though, my Marquee is a little fatiguing for me at 60hz refresh, I may actually get inside of it to see because I have the sinking suspicion it might, for some bizarre reason, have the p43 fast green phosphor. I'm only using a laptop temporarily, and it's pretty maxed at 1024 at 60hz, so i can't push it higher or it craps out, but a higher refresh is needed, because I can definitely see the scanning flicker, and it's annoying, though not as annoying as rainbows. I am SUPER sensitive to this kind of thing, not sure exactly why. I think it's my viewing style, plus maybe my ex-gamer training .

BTW, magnolia, I asked them once about CRT projectors, and the guy didn't even know what I was talking about, it was funny. It took him a few seconds to figure out that they don't sell them. amusing.

I did not see Guy's XG, as I was not at the first shootout, but the consensus as you've read was definitely the G70 at the second. Steve (who had the G70) and I went to Darin's (had the Sharp HD2+), because Steve's room was white, with black velvet near the screen, but darin's is like all black with black velvet over everything, and so we could see the ANSI benefit of the DLP without it being hit by the room so much. But in that environment, all black, the rainbows were absolutely terrible. I would have to put a dlp in an all-white room to minimize seeing the rainbows. However, I also am bothered by the refresh on CRTs a lot, so I hesitate to criticize rainbows heavily, as even on my Marquee, I need to push a higher refresh as I mentioned, because it is fatiguing too.

I'll be waiting to scoop up the G90s for pennies on the dollar when they are finally bested by something better. .