Un-Official Poll--Who`s Sticking w/ 2-channel for Music (1 Viewer)

[LanceJ]

Mike: better sound isn't worth an extra @five bucks, on top of an average of $15 for a CD? Audio/music hobbyists are a small market for the major music companies and hi-rez technology is still relatively new & expensive compared to the twenty year old 44.1kHz/16bit CD format. I'm definitely no fan of Big Business but those are unfortunate financial realities.

Alan Parsons Project (Yes, I know ONE of their albums is on DVD-A)

If only that were true. I'll bet you saw DTS Entertainment's "music disc" of Alan's album On Air:
http://www.dtsentertainment.com/sell...c=710215441429
HEY MR.PARSONS! WHAT'S THE HOLD UP WITH YOUR ALBUMS IN 5.1 SOUND??? WHAT AN AWESOME MATCH-UP!
LJ

 

[Mike Broadman]

I believe there is a DAD of I, Robot.

 

[Rick_Brown]

I was an early adopter of quadraphonic, going through several iterations. I continued to listen throught the 70's, 80's and 90's via my quad setup as I loved what it did for my 2-channel music CD's. I only retired my quad setup when I went digital 2 years ago, and I always listen to DPL2 for stereo CD's. So, this means that I have been listening to music in a "surround" way continuously for some 30 years or more now.

I can't go back! I've listened to many of my friend's 2-channel systems over the years but I've always felt something was missing. When I temporarily change my surround system to stereo I feel like the sound has collapsed against one wall. I guess my brain is now so hard-wired for surround that I'm hopelessly addicted.

 

[Joel Fontenot]

Yes, I, Robot was the Alan Parsons DVD-A I was talking about. The only high-rez he's done to date, except for his DTS On Air
And, I know LeRoux is wishful thinking. Heck, their 5 studio albums have only had CD releases overseas between the EU and Japan. I just found a 25th anniversary edition of the first LP on CD here. I don't know who actually made it. Could be a bootleg. Sounds OK but I still like my needle drop CoolEdit clean-up for my own CD-r better. The CD has a few drop-outs at the very beginning of the opening vocal for Take a Ride on a Riverboat - very irritating. And the opening guitar ringing note of Backslider, which fades in and goes a while on the LP, just starts suddenly and then too quickly goes into the music.
But, once they, and the other groups I mentioned, start getting represented (Tangerine Dream more completely), then I might consider it.
Joel

 

[LanceJ]

Sorry if I sound overly anal-retentive about this, but a "DAD" isn't a dvd-audio disc. DAD stands for "digital audio disc". It works just like a CD, but uses the 96kHz/24bit PCM format instead of CD's 44.1/16 PCM format.
DADs were out only about a year before SACD (followed by dvd-audio) was introduced, and DAD was completely overshadowed by all the fanfare.
LJ

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Mike: better sound isn't worth an extra @five bucks, on top of an average of $15 for a CD?

Lance,
You don't have to spend $20 to pick up SACDs anymore. The new Universal and Verve's have been selling in my neighborhood for $14.99 to $15.99 at Best Buy, Circuit City and Tower Records.
I just picked up Beck Sea Changes for $14.99 and it has some of the best pop sonics so far on Super Audio.
Prices will come down further as either the format wars heat up or unit volume delivers economies of scale.

 

[mike_decock]

Mike: better sound isn't worth an extra @five bucks, on top of an average of $15 for a CD?

It's not really a matter of it being "worth it". I'm just not interested in a bunch of "audiophile" or mainstream titles. If the format doesn't grow enough to include the obscure albums I want, it just isn't worth it. I won't invest in a format that will only yield me a few dozen titles I want to own in hi-rez. I need to see at least 50% of the albums in my collection become available in a hi-rez format before I buy into it. Until that happens, the format runs the risk of being shelved by the big boys and remaining an overpriced specialty to gouge audiophiles.


-Mike...

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Until that happens, the format runs the risk of being shelved by the big boys and remaining an overpriced specialty to gouge audiophiles.

I guess I have two comments:

1. What albums would you like to see? I honestly think for a young format there are some really compelling titles and things will only improve...

2. You may find that your situation of waiting for a full catalog of "obscure" titles may not extrapolate out to the whole market in terms of format longevity.

Plus, Super Audio could very well survive just on the basis of a pro market archiving alternative - there's a lot of royalties and performance benefits on the pro side of things. That would keep several important titles coming out each year.

There are benefits and real risks to waiting. If you like jazz, for instance, like Mike Broadman and myself, the opportunity cost of sitting out Super Audio is very, very high.

Count me in as an early adopter who is optimistic about the future. Until the future arrives, I've got some great tunes to listen to.

 

[mike_decock]

1. What albums would you like to see? I honestly think for a young format there are some really compelling titles and things will only improve...

I'm talking about albums from Klaatu, King's X, Allan Holdsworth, etc. When those albums come out I know I'm not going to be stuck with the typical audiophile or mainstream releases.

A lot of the jazz coming out on SACD has already been done to death on reissue LPs and CDs. How many copies of "Kind Of Blue" do I REALLY need?


-Mike...

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I'm talking about albums from Klaatu, King's X, Allan Holdsworth, etc.

Mike, thanks for listing these. I am not familiar with any of them but it is possible they will come out. Are any of these artists of yours on Universal or Sony or EMI labels? If so, it could easily happen over time.
You may just want to wait and see, but there are a lot of mainstream releases ahead I bet will make people get on board.

 

[mike_decock]

Are any of these artists of yours on Universal or Sony or EMI labels?

Ummm... I haven't paid too much attention on which labels are parts of which coporate giants at this point. Klaatu was originally on Atlantic but the better CD reissues were done in tiny indie labels (Attic, Jensen). King's X is on Megaforce which is part of Atlantic (WEA) so I'm not sure where that falls in the DVD-A/SACD world. Some of the Allan Holdsworth stuff I'd love to see is on Relativity and some is on Restless. I'm not sure what majors those fall under either.

The only way I see it being worthwhile for ME is if one or both of the hi-rez formats replaces CD. You have to determine at what point it's worth it for YOU.

-Mike...

 

[Mike Broadman]

You also have to keep in mind that for some of us (like me), who don't have a record player (yet), SACD is a convenient and easy way to dig some superior sounding music. I can understand a vinyl afficionado not being as excited about it, especially if he is not interested in surround sound and when many of these titles are released as brand new audiophile vinyl versions at roughly the same time as the SACDs (Fantasy, AP, etc).

As for Miles Davis "crowding out" other jazz artists, I kind of agree. This is painful for me to say as I might be the biggest Miles fan on the board, but I'd gladly sacrifice the bottom-of-the-barrel Miles titles (Big Fun, Quiet Nights) for some other stuff.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

As for Miles Davis "crowding out" other jazz artists, I kind of agree.

Mike,

I am encouraged by this comment. I would, of course, like to hear both Miles and others but we have definitely seen too little of:

Joe Henderson
McCoy Tyner
Hank Mobley
Tommy Flanagan

...and a bunch of other jazz artists.

It seems as though the record execs decide to spend a limited amount of money on new jazz releases (given the smaller audience) and then whip out a top selling albums chart.

 

[Mike Broadman]

Oh man, don't even get me started on jazz artists I want to see on SACD.

Grant Green (this will never happen, because his audience, while loyal, is limited- unfortunately)

Herbie Hancock- the pre-fusion stuff like Maiden Voyage and My Point of View.

Wayne Shorter

Sarah Vaughan

Duke Ellington

more Charles Mingus- two of his best albums, Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus and Black Saint and the Sinner Lady are on Impulse!, so Universal could do these.

Wes Montgomery- a couple of his albums have been released as gold CDs by DCC. An SACD of Full House would so sweet.

more Thelonious Monk- I know, I probably shouldn't complain because we already have two great SACDs, but I just love Monk so much...

Horace Silver- again, this will never happen (see Grant Green)

Bille Holiday- some of her older stuff when she sounded good (Lady In Satin was recorded past her prime)

Oscar Peterson- while we have a couple of his newer recordings on SACD and I enjoy them, how cool would it be to have Night Train?

John McLaughlin / Mahavishnu Orchestra

Chick Corea / Return To Forever

Dizzy Gillespie- I'd particularly love to hear his later big band stuff in surround high-res.

etc and so forth...


NP: Phil Collins, Face Value

 

[LanceJ]

You also have to keep in mind that for some of us (like me), who don't have a record player (yet),.....

I'm not trying to pick on you Mike, but I read similar comments a lot here & on other forums. Why don't you (& the others) have a turntable yet?
If it's for financial reasons, I can fully relate. No more explanation is necessary.
Or is it the belief that vinyl is "complicated" and extremely expensive? Contrary to the horror stories golden-ears spread out there, vinyl is not difficult to deal with and it doesn't have to be expensive. In my opinion, those $10,000 TT's one sees in audiophile mags are designed by a marketing expert, not a good engineer.
One of the best cartridges available is the Shure V15VxMR, @$275 street price ( http://www.shure.com/v15vxmr.html ). A decent basic turntable to plug it into will run around $300 (example: http://www.sumikoaudio.net/model1-2.htm ). Putting these together will result in excellent sound. And buying a separate stand-alone phono stage will help too (receivers don't always include high quality phono preamp stages) but this is not essential.
A few months ago at my local Tweeter they were selling a Project turntable/cartridge combination for I think about $425.
Yes, with analog better mechanical systems do result in better sound, but analog still has its own point of diminishing returns. I think many audiophiles--with their overly-fussy and pseudo-science filled opinions--the last decade or so have caused many people to think analog audio is this highly technical and mystical hobby, suited only for audio nutz.
It isn't.
But because of these falsehoods, I fear many who would really enjoy owning a nice "hi-fi" now just buy those cheesy plastic mini-systems to avoid the supposed analog hassle. Arrgh!
Setting up a turntable does take a few minutes, but its no big deal & it's not scary. Just read the instruction manuals, especially the one for the cartridge.
And Technics still makes entry level TTs. They uses a P-mount cartridge system which takes the remaining guesswork out of adding vinyl to your system's signal sources (from J&R Music World): http://www.jandr.com/JRProductPage.p...e,Product_Name
(And get this: while watching a show on the History Channel recently about how the Smithsonian is archiving our nation's music, they showed them using "common-man" Technics SL-1200 turntables and Stanton cartridges to do so! Not a foo-foo overpriced "audiophile" brand in sight. Then they converted the resulting signal into 96kHz/24bit .wav files.)
Anyhoo, that's MY opinion on vinyl.
LJ

 

[Lewis Besze]

I too favour MC over stereo,and share John Kotches's opinion that stereo was a compromise to begin with.
I also listen all my cd's in DPLII music mode which simply gives that "live" feeling for me, which stereo seldom can if ever, IMO.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Herbie Hancock- the pre-fusion stuff like Maiden Voyage and My Point of View.

I agree with the pre-fusion stuff. I have never been as big a fusion fan although it can be an interesting adventure.

 

[mike_decock]

Why don't you (& the others) have a turntable yet?

Lance, you are absolutely right! I got going with a Music Hall MMF 2.1. The Goldring Elan that comes with it is enough to get you started but ever since I threw a Shure V15VxMR on there, I just can't get excited about putting a shiny silver disc in a magic box. Since then, I've upgraded the table to a VPI Scout, but it wasn't nearly as much of a difference as the upgrade to the Shure was. No regrets about that upgrade, but a Shure on an entry level table will give ANY digital source a serious run for the money.
Then there's the music. You want quantity? Go out to Goodwill and pay $1.00 or less per album. Sometimes you run across real gems and it's finally cheap enough to check out all those albums you heard one good song from but were never willing to take the risk on dropping $15 to check it out.
Looking for specific used albums? Go to www.GEMM.com and browse through millions of them. Want a hi-rez Grant Green in VG+ condition? It's out there, waiting for the enthusiast and more likely than not, it's gonna be cheaper than the SACD is or will be or would be if it EVER gets released.
Stores like Red Trumpet, Music Direct and Acoustic Sounds will have your head spinning at the broad range of audiophile (re)issues. If you can't find the mainstream titles at those shops, check Tower Records. Most of those are about the same price as the CD.
You want classic Jazz? Check out www.fantasyjazz.com (Original Jazz Classics). Most of their releases are a mere $10.00. You can order them straight from Fantasy, from the Audiophile dealers above or even from Tower Records.
Yeah, it's not surprising I don't get thrilled about SACD/DVD-A. I've already got great sound, millions of titles to choose from, bargain prices, audiophile reissues and full-size artwork.
-Mike...
P.S. 2 channels can sound VERY enveloping, it just takes a little time and patience to do proper speaker location and room treatments. I far prefer that to pouring money into more hardware.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

.S. 2 channels can sound VERY enveloping

As I have said many times before

 

[John Kotches]

Lewis,

Thanks, but it isn't my opinion.

This was the results of research done at places like AT&Ts Bell Labs by scientists far smarter than I am quite a number of years ago.

Two channels was the compromise that was easily deliverable.

Regards,