Uh-Oh... three WB (film) HR discs somewhat sloppily upconverted to 1080p!!!

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by DaViD Boulet, Jun 1, 2006.

  1. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    This post is not an HD DVD slam. This is FORMAT NEUTRAL. This problem can affect either format at any time. It's a STUDIO problem: Do not turn this thread into an HD DVD/BD debate or I will get MODs to take action.


    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7753789

    http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...5&postcount=20


    This is really bad news. Folks, don't ignore this.

    The Fugitive and Full Metal Jacket are apparently mastered from 1080i60 HD conversions rather than from native 1080p24 feeds.

    This is serious. and this is not a problem with HD DVD... it's a problem that can happen on either HD DVD or Blu-ray at any time... it's a STUDIO problem.

    And it extends beyond problems with aliasing and deinterlacing issues upon playback (as well as confusing a HD DVD/BD player's ability to output a true 1080P stream). It means that most likely these 1080i60 conversions already had vertical-domain pre-filtering which is routine with all interlaced masters.

    Let your voices be heard.

    And Warner... there is no excuse. If consumers can procure deinterlacers that can do proper 3-2 pulldown from 1080i60 film-based signals, so can you!
     
  2. Jack Briggs

    Jack Briggs Executive Producer

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    Yet, David, I still recall Robert Harris's ringing endorsement of the Full Metal Jacket disc. It's basically like film. Add to that Sound & Vision magazine's glowing review of the format ("best HD picture we've ever seen"), and I think this sort of objection is, for most viewers, picking nits. However, I'm sure a plethora of opinions will soon follow.
     
  3. Larry Sutliff

    Larry Sutliff Cinematographer

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    Very interesting. I haven't watched THE FUGITIVE yet, but I've read that it looks considerably less pristine than most of the other HD DVD's released. Thanks for the info, David.
     
  4. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    Like lack of 16x9 and EE ringing were once considered "nit picking" with DVD media?

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Vincent_P

    Vincent_P Screenwriter

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    SPECULATION, BUT-

    Wouldn't this likely mean that FULL METAL JACKET used the HD transfer that was done in 2000 for the remastered Kubrick DVDs- i.e., the "full-frame" one for the DVD (which I assume was a 1.33:1 pillar-boxed image within the HD 16:9 frame)? Back then, Leon Vitali said in interviews that the "full frame" Kubricks were mastered in HD with the 1.33:1 image pillar-boxed. As such, is there a chance that not only is this DVD mastered from a 1080I source, but that said source was then CROPPED top and bottom in order to turn it into a widescreen source, thus lopping off a bunch of the scan lines? I've read some reviews of FULL METAL JACKET that say the difference between it and most of the other HD-DVDs vs. their standard-def counterparts is a lot more subtle, and if they took a pillar-boxed 1080I transfer then cropped it to 16:9 top-and-bottom, thus throwing away scan lines AND expanding the pillar-boxed actual image area (which would lose a good portion of the 1920 horizontal pixals to black bars at the sides) to fill a 16:9 HD frame, this could account for this, no? Obviously, THE FUGITIVE wouldn't be affected this way since that master filled the full 16:9 frame to begin with, but now I have to wonder/worry about the upcoming "widescreen" versions of the Kubrick titles...

    Vincent
     
  6. Paul Hillenbrand

    Paul Hillenbrand Screenwriter

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    Last night I watched "The Fugitive" on HD-DVD and the picture quality was very good. The first thing I noticed was the faded colors, so I used the "wide" color space selection, instead of "normal" and that corrected that.

    The detail in close-up shots was not as resolved as most of the other HD-DVD's I've viewed, but I thought at the time it probably was because of the film itself and its age. Never saw the movie before last night.

    Paul
     
  7. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    Paul,

    what type of display do you have? a native 1080I, 720P, or full 1080P display?
     
  8. Chad R

    Chad R Cinematographer

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    Couldn't they just release the DVD as 1080i (which the majority of displays are anyway for the time being), which would skip the de-interlacing, or will the player only take a 1080p disc?
     
  9. Herb Kane

    Herb Kane Screenwriter

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    Watched The Perfect Storm last night and it was gorgeous - and - absolutely problem free - great colors, razor sharp image, no ringing etc. Will be working on the full review over the weekend.

    Herb.
     
  10. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    Chad,

    good point. Yes, they could release the HD DVD encoded as "1080i60" looking like a "normal" 1080i interlaced signal.

    That would work *fine* for the interlaced output of HD DVD players.

    but it could make a mess of future "progressive-scan" HD DVD players able to output 1080p60 or 1080p24... they might look at the signal and just assume it's a standard 1080I signal and just bob-weave it for progressive processing.

    But yeah... that would still probably be better than using a *bad* deiterlacer to convert it to 1080p24 for authoring... bcs once you "lock in" the bad processing you can't undo it.

    Of course... why can't WB just use a deinterlacer that can actually do 3-2 pulldown reversal? Duh!

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Nils Luehrmann

    Nils Luehrmann Producer

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    Add to that low bit rates, non 4:3 pillarboxing, S-video interlaced players, and many other factors that effected PQ on DVD.

    Let me be the first to say "THANK YOU NIT-PICKERS!!!!! "

    If it weren't for you (both consumer and studio/DVD producing nit-pickers), we might still be watching non-anamorphic low bit rate video saturated with edge enhancement on single layer DVD playing back on interlaced players on low quality outputs. [​IMG]

    Like 1080i, some of the issues listed above (non 16x9, EE, low bit rates, etc) were not easily noticed by most consumers early on due to the types of displays and set-ups most consumers had. Fortunately, "nit-pickers" knew better, and eventually consumers came around and realized these issues were important. And like the glowing reviews of this title, many early titles on DVD also were given glowing reviews only to be later condemned for having many of the same issues as being discussed here.

    Will most owners of HD players notice a difference between 1080i and 1080p...? Probably not. Will they in five years as their display technology catches up with the source material? Probably yes.

    I certainly see future Warner HD double-dips on the horizon... much like they have been doing with their older releases updated as "2-Disc Special Edition".
     
  12. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    [​IMG]
     
  13. Paul Hillenbrand

    Paul Hillenbrand Screenwriter

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    As of May 19, I'm now using a native 1080P Sony SXRD 'Ruby' projector. Got a good "street price" deal on the new shipment that I didn't want to refuse[​IMG]. After viewing native 3 chip 1080P, I don't miss anything from my previous 1 chip 720P DLP. It's very mesmerizing.

    Paul
     
  14. Dave H

    Dave H Producer

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    I, too, agree this is a big deal and now is the time to put a stop to it.

    Or, maybe it's just their way of setting up for double-dipping once again.
     
  15. Paul_Scott

    Paul_Scott Lead Actor

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    I agree David. The effects visible on The Fugitve are brief, minor, and only on display (that I saw) for a half dozen instances out of the entire runtime- but it was disappointing to see any. The other titles have appeared at first, second, and third glance to be flawless.

    and I agree, this does bode badly for both formats. Hell, I thought the HD master for the Fugitive was relatively new too- or does it date back to the first non-SE of the title?

    While Full Metal Jacket was fairly underwhelming in regards to its HD qualities, I don't recall seeing any aliasing, shimmer, moireing, or whatever you want to call it.

    I hope someone at Warner slammed the brakes on after these two. If The other Kubricks, or any other big catalog titles (like Superman) are released like this, my enthusiasm is certainly going to drop a few notches.
     
  16. JohnS

    JohnS Producer

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    looks like I'll hold off on the Fugitive then.

    and pay close attention to the reviews, and not buy so much on impulse like I did with SD's
     
  17. Ed St. Clair

    Ed St. Clair Producer

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    DaViD,
    When I voiced my concerns that HD DVD discs would be 1080i, you adamantly told me time & time again I had nothing to worry about.
    What do your all knowing sources have to say about this now?
    Sad.
     
  18. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    Ed,

    Obviously... some goofs at WB screwed things up despite their overal corporate stance of going with 1080p24 native.


    [​IMG]

    To be fair... I never promised that the studios would use all new 1080p24 transfers (though naturally we all hoped that they would)... Just that the authored disc would be encoded in 1080p24... And actually, it seems that the discs *ARE AUTHORED* in 1080p24... the problem is how they got that 1080p24 signal! (ie, a poor conversion from a 1080i60 source... apparently even a 1080p24 authored disc is no guarantee that things went right up to that point!)

    ugh!

    The *good* news is that we're finding this out NOW at this *very* early stage of HD DVD production. Hopefully once the studios get wind that videophiles are aware and none-too-pleased with these mastering compromises, they'll change incorporate some mastering check-points to make sure things improve (for BD as well). I mean... if a consumer can get a processor to properly deinterlace film-based 1080i60 using 3-2 pulldown reversal...why can't Warner Brothers $tudios?

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Mark Zimmer

    Mark Zimmer Producer

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    Probably the same reason I can get flawless PAL/NTSC conversion on a $50 Chinese DVD player but Warner Brothers $tudio can't manage to figure out how to do that for their Chaplin DVDs.
     
  20. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    Mark,

    Isn't that the most painful irony? It really makes one wonder what goes on under the hood of the $$$$$ studio gear...
     

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