UFC Ongoing Thread

Andres Munoz

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That's pretty bad news for that company. I don't know how seriously fans will take it after this.

And personally, I don't like the idea of combining a music concert with MMA. Sounds like a gimmick to sell more tickets to me. But that's just IMHO.
 

Casey Trowbridg

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Andres, you've got it right it is a gimmick to sell more tickets and PPV orders.

The only problem is that it always fails. Always, always, always, always. The only time it doesn't come off as a complete waste is when the band is brought in to perform someone's walk-in music live.

Put it this way, if there were any kind of link between music and MMA, why don't you see bands line up fights to take place at their concerts on tour? Why, because that'd be really dumb.
 

Casey Trowbridg

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More on Affliction

Some interesting stuff there and when I read the thing earlier about an announcement that would change everything even the UFC...all I thought of was how similar that sounds to a tease that world championship wrestling once made headed in to a Pay-per-view.

On a related note, WCW isn't in business anymore.
 

Mikah Cerucco

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I'd like to provide some insightful commentary, but I think I'll have to think about what I witnessed more. One thing I know for sure is Kimbo isn't washed up. He will get more fights, but hopefully he will earn his reputation now instead of having it foisted upon him.

What I need more time to digest is why he crumbled. Sure he got hit, but it didn't look like that solid of a blow (a solid blow can take out anyone, I don't care who you are). And with his background, it's not like he hasn't been hit before. I saw the replays, but I still didn't see it. I'm going to have to watch my recording.

The MMA world needs to leave Ken Shamrock alone. Put him out to pasture.
 

Casey Trowbridg

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Well, I really don't need much more time to digest what happened on Saturday.

1. Credit to both Slice and Petruzelli for agreeing to fight one another. Neither was in a real good position having trained for very different oponents before agreeing to the fight in literally maybe an hour before the show started. They both deserve credit for stepping up and keeping one of the show's main attractions, Kimbo, on the air tonight.

2. I knew Slice was screwed the second the fight was announced. Petruzelli and Shamrock couldn't be anymore different not just in terms of reputation and recognition but in terms of threat. I'm guessing Kimbo's camp focused more on submissions, leglocks and stuff because that's Shamrock's deal and it isn't a knock on the camp because that's standard practice for many camps when preparing someone for a fight. Work less on your own strengths and more on the strengths of the oponent.

3. Seth Petruzelli is not Rocky Balboa for what he did to Kimbo. Slice was shown vulnerable against James Thompson in his previous fight and when a fight is put together on almost 0 notice anything can happen. Petruzelli's win isn't the MMA version of the miracle on ice no matter how bad the announcers wanted to tell us that it was.

4. Things aren't looking good for EliteXC. They're some $60 million in the whole (they ran their first show in Feb. 2007 BTW so that's even worse than it sounds) Showtime is considering a purchase of the company outright and this show needed to do a good rating for the CBS partnership to continue. Showtime's desire to purchase the company may relate to the CBS deal continuing, no deal, less likely of a purchase.
The show may do a rating just because of Kimbo but the fact that they didn't deliver the advertised main event is pretty much the worst disaster possible with the cherry on top being the myth of Kimbo being shattered for a lot of people.

Sure, the expectations on the guy were unrealistically high to start, this is only his 4th professional bout if you'll recall, not many 3-0 fighters headline on TV in front of millions of people. But deserved or not there was a mystique around him and it may have very well been shattered tonight.

Add to that the fact that Petruzelli did a radio interview about 2 weeks ago and essentially said that if he were to pick up a couple of wins the UFC said they'd bring him back and well...

The whole future of EliteXC was riding on tonight and I'm not going to say that Kimbo getting clobbered doomed the company (they may have been doomed regardless) but if the end does come and they're not saved by a Showtime then tonight will be one of the key points when the obituary is ruined.

It was make or break on Saturday and right now it looks like break.
 

Casey Trowbridg

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One other note. Dave Meltzer, who was in attendance at the show, reported that Petruzelli wasn't the only possibility for a replacement.

The other man who was willing to step in if Kimbo had agreed to it and had the commission allowed it?

Some guy named Frank Shamrock. You may have heard of him from some place.
 

Mikah Cerucco

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OK, I rewatched it in slo-mo, and...

Casey, you're not surprised Kimbo essentially crumbled from one punch from an opponent much lighter than he, who was going backwards, had one foot in the air, and was standing on his toes with a bent (going backwards) knee on the other leg at the time of the punch?

Maybe it's me, but if there were a gameshow that showed events up to a single point and it stopped at the moment of contact with Kimbo, then asked me (for a million dollars) if I predicted he'd fall to the ground or keep coming, I'd have lost the million dollars. Not because I buy into any of the Kimbo hype or anything (I'm on record in this thread as preferring "real" MMA fighters). It's because I've seen some of his internet/youtube fights, and as a street brawler, he's certainly seemed able to take a punch in the past.

I mean, it happened, so the proof's in the pudding, but color me surprised about how he lost.

In other news, mmajunkie has a headline ""EliteXC: Heat" draws 9,414 spectators for $826,000 gate". They made that sound really good, but I'm surprised live attendance for a network-televised MMA event is so little. I've never really paid attention to gate numbers, but certainly the PRIDE and DREAM events have had many more people in the seats. Of course a case can be made that when things are televised, there is less incentive for people to go (hence the local blackout rules for major sports), but I'd think in this case, many folks would want to attend the event. 9,000 people just isn't very many at all, IMO. Maybe they should have done it in California if Florida couldn't come up with any more support than that.
 

Andres Munoz

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Wow, my jaw hit the floor when I saw that TKO. How could Kimbo get knocked out with a jab from a guy who was sort of moving backwards? I guess he hit him right in the button. And then the cut Kimbo had after the fight was pretty nasty.

Goes to show you that anything can happen in this sport. This loss can be a good thing. Maybe Kimbo will come back hungrier and stronger from this.
 

Casey Trowbridg

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Mikah, I was not surprised that Kimbo got beat. As far as the how, hey, I think anything can happen in a fight so when anything happens, I'm not surprised.

Also, 9,000 people isn't necessarily a bad crowd. I would want to know things like how many people the venue is scaled to hold for an event like that. Plus, the prospect of going to see a show that is going to be network televised isn't really going to draw that many people. Also, the last show they ran for CBS, in Stockton California, didn't do all that well at the gate either so going to California isn't a cure all.

The size of the crowd and amount of money at the gate is more a reflection of the company than a commentary on MMA or network TV. Remember, EliteXC has network TV but at best they're a distant second to the UFC in terms of recognition. That's why the Pride and Dream comparisons don't work because for a very long time, Pride was the #1 MMA organization on the entire planet (and Pride's going out of business had nothing to do with it not being popular anymore) and Dream is the most recognizable MMA organization in Japan and is of a considerably higher profile in that country than even the UFC.

Dream may not seem like a big deal to you but Dream is the biggest MMA company in Japan and that's not even remotely comparable to EliteXC in the States. The big crowds you may see at Dream shows or on Pride highlights/DVDs or whatever aren't U.S. crowds they're Japanese crowds and the audiences couldn't be any different. It seems less of a big deal here in the states because it isn't on a big network and doesn't feature big name American fighters.
 

Mikah Cerucco

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That brings up a question for me you may be the guy to ask... How does that compare to wrestling crowds? What about UFC?

Given 9,000 is an "acceptable" or even "good" gate for top tier MMA event at this point, I'd say the sport has a lot of room to grow.

And just to clarify, I'm not surprised Kimbo got beat, but I guess I'm not as jaded as I thought I was because I'm completely surprised about the how. Even in my apparently previous believe that anything can happen, my reaction tells me anything wasn't anything, because I certainly wouldn't have envisioned that.
 

Steve_Tk

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UFC sells between 12-13K seats per event. Kimbo is not as great as they hype him up to be, but that punch just hit him in the right place at the right time. Stranger things have happened. People act like you have to have the perfect punch to the face to work, so wrong. My friends were saying that even when Kimbo went down Seth wasn't landing good hits. If you are taking hit after hit to the head, it works, it doesn't have to be like in the movies a square hit to the face. Even glancing blows off the back of your head work.
 

Casey Trowbridg

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Sorry I've been quiet as of late, been busy.

EliteXC is dead

I'll comment more on EliteXC's death later when my head clears of a headache not related to the news.

As for the questions, the WWE would consider EliteXC's attendance on Oct 4 to be poor for most shows but it does depend on the market they run, they can sell 70,000 tickets for WrestleMania with no trouble and most shows due 10,000 or better but it depends on arena size and such.

The thing is there that the WWE can sell 70,000 tickets for WrestleMania but the prices are lower than for UFC. For instance, WrestleMania 22 (held in 2006) was in the same building as UFC 90 this weekend but UFC 90 holds the gate record even though they've not sold it out because they charge more for ticket.

TNA would be thrilled to sell 9,000 tickets for a given show it would be a record for the company but again they typically don't run 9,000+ seat buildings and when they do they don't make that many tickets available anyway.

UFC does, as Steve mentioned, in the 12,000 range. But again, they'd take 9,000 for a fight night in Denver with no complaints I hink. The shows at the Palms Casino don't do well because the building seats maybe 1,000 or a little more so it is easy to sell out. The UFC has never run a stadium show, they'd like to, so we don't know how many could be sold if they chose to do so. The GSP fight in Montreal holds the record for most tickets sold for a UFC fight at over 20,000.


One other thing to consider when looking at this, Affliction bought a lot of the tickets for their first show themselves and then gave them away. It had the effect of inflating the gate quite a bit but they also had to pay the tax on the tickets they purchased plus the purchase price. It isn't an uncommon practice for some companies to buy their own tickets for give aways and such to produce a sellout, it even happens in the NFL.

So, the bottom line is that everything from building size, ticket price and frequency of appearance in the given market is a factor in how well tickets sell. Interesting, the Couture-Lesnar fight has not sold out yet.
 

Andres Munoz

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Pardon my ignorance but I don't see what's wrong with Seth's statements. Getting paid to stand and trade with Kimbo? Isn't that what a fight is about? Why are the authorities looking into that?

BTW, did anyone watch the UFC PPV this past Saturday? Man, Lieben's face was all screwed up at the end but that fight was kind of boring, IMHO.
 

Casey Trowbridg

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Andres, here is Seth Petruzelli's actual quote.


Now, later Petruzelli would back track and claim that EliteXC offered him a knockout bonus in the fight with Kimbo, but that's not what the initial quote suggested. Offering a fighter a knockout bonus isn't illegal and is common practice, even submission bonuses are offered to guys.

However, what Petruzelli was saying is that they paid him not to take Kimbo Slice down. Many see that as an attempt for EliteXC to alter the outcome of a fight by trying to pay someone not to use a fascit of their MMA gameplan.
You could argue that by offering Seth Petruzelli money in exchange for not taking Kimbo down they were in effect offering him money to put his opponent at an advantage in the fight.

That would be very close to if not exactly fit the definition of trying to fix a fight for a certain outcome. The state athletic commissions aren't going to be down with that kind of thing.

So Petruzelli makes those comments (on the radio mind you) and then backtracks. But that gets people interested and wondering about the legitimacy of the fight. So the Florida State Athletic Commission decides to launch an investigation in to what happens and what this money was for that was given to Petruzelli.


CBS, who wasn't pleased with the events the day of the show that left Ken Shamrock out and Seth Petruzelli in wants no part of a scandal like that and they pull out of a deal that was pretty much done for them to buy the company. Thus in a round-about kind of way, Ken Shamrock killed EliteXC.

However, even though the Oct. 4 chain of events from Shamrock's cut to Petruzelli's win and then his interview set in motion the end of the group the promotion had provided plenty of reasons for its own death long before that night.

I'm going to be doing an audio update later today examining the whole thing, from all of the things that killed this company from the very start, to what may be next for some of the top fighters in the company and what CBS/Showtime will do in the future.


It is ironic because many people thought the promotion would be doomed when Kimbo Slice was beaten and that's essentially what happened. Only the doom didn't so much come from the Kimbo loss so much as from the guy who beat him. One quote from Seth Petruzelli and a subsequent investigation later and CBS decides to wash their hands of the whole thing.

MMA is just like any other sport, a slave to the television industry.
 

Andres Munoz

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That makes much more sense now Casey. Thanks.

Yes, getting paid to not take Kimbo down is essentially saying, play to Kimbo's strengths so it's easier for him to win. But the plan blew up in their face because he ended up getting knocked out.

I wouldn't say that Ken Shamrock killed EliteXC. IMO, Petruzelli did with his comments. If it wasn't for the comments, CBS probably would've seen this a great opportunity for another big event with the eventual Kimbo - Petruzelli rematch. I imagine a lot more people would watch this fight than the 1st one. But by Seth opening his mouth, it not only killed that match, it killed the whole company. Ouch.
 

Steve_Tk

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If you watch the replay you can see the CEO of EliteXC in the background screaming at Kimbo to get up, and when Kimbo gets KO'd he just held his hand over his face.
 

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