U571 Incorrect Bass Levels

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Tony Lai, Aug 10, 2001.

  1. Tony Lai

    Tony Lai Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2000
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This was just pointed out to me in another thread and it's something I've known for quite a while.
    U571 clearly has incorrect LFE boost. The first time I *experienced* it on my setup, I knew that something was definitely wrong. There's no way that any studio would do this deliberately.
    So they screwed up U571 but in a way that we like? So no complaints about directors' intent or such nonsense when it works in our favour???
    Vis a vi JP dts?
    :)
    T.
     
  2. Rob Gillespie

    Rob Gillespie Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 1998
    Messages:
    3,632
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thread header changed:
     
  3. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 1999
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Did anybody compared this DVD to the original printmaster?
    If so where is the publication?
    I've heard this claim before but nobody showed any undeniable proof,only theories.
    Yes apperantly the DTS LFE is "hotter",but who's to say that's the incorrect,not the Dolby?
    ------------------
    "You Hungarians always disagree"
     
  4. David-alexander

    David-alexander Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    May 28, 2001
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Tony : buy bigger subs (not the "plural"). things have changed today, massive gear is needed.
     
  5. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 1999
    Messages:
    1,479
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well, you put a little smiley at the end, so apparently you were just having a little fun, but if you were serious(I'll bet you actually were--it's OK to admit it [​IMG])then Lewis' point stands.
    Of course, most of us want our soundtracks as close to the original as possible, but if it is inaccurate then I hope they err on the side of mas bass.
    After all, as the Poet said:
    To err is human, to over-LFE divine. [​IMG]
    DJ
     
  6. Sean Oneil

    Sean Oneil Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2001
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    U-571 DTS' bass sounds correct to me, especially when you consider just how loud the rest of the audible frequency is on that disc. Sometimes during the depth charge scenes, I cringe from the extremely loud midrange and treble frequencies rather than the bass. I have a SVS 20-39 in a small room, so I know that the sub is not lacking either. Is it possible that your sub may just be turned up a little high? I don't know if you have gotten the chance to calibrate your audio levels properly yet.
    I agree with David ...mixes are changing and becoming much more powerful, requiring serious gear to handle properly.
    The fact that ther is a 4dB difference between the two? Could be that the engineers simply could not get the bass level that loud using the DD codec at the 448k bit rate without compromising the quality of the rest of the mix. Remember ...Dolby Digital is a bit-allocation format, and they may have needed to tone down the bass to obtain a quality DD mix (without sacrificing channel seperation.)
    Feel free to smack me around if there are some holes in that theory. [​IMG]
    [Edited last by Sean Oneil on August 11, 2001 at 02:39 AM]
     
  7. Vince Maskeeper

    Vince Maskeeper Producer

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 1999
    Messages:
    6,499
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    1) The DTS and DD LFE levels are 4db different, the DTS version being higher by 4db. By this, one could extrapolate that one of the two is incorrect.
    2) Without a print master to compare to (which wouldn't matter anyway as the film has been remixed for HT), it's tought to make 100% assertions about WHICH of the 2 is wrong, so we have educated guesses.
    3) Educated guess #1 points to the fact that Universal had other problems with the DTS encoder (ie the Jurassic Park issues, which were- coincidentally- 4db off). I have spoken with a few people who have said they wouldn't be suprised if Universal got their 4db errors (under on JP, over on U-571) trying to defeat some sort of "juicing" the DTS encoder tried to execute.
    4) Educated guess #2 points to the fact that Universal's discs were encoded using a BRAND NEW dts encoder- versus a dolby encoding process they had (in theory) been using for nearly 10 years. I would say, if one of the two is more likely to be wrong, the DTS encoder which had been available for less than 4 months seems like it would have a higher number of user errors vs. the Dolby encoder the engineers had been using for a decade.
    5) Educated guess #3 points to the fact that soundtrack cues are remarkably overbassy on the DTS track, when compared to a promo copy of the U-571 motion picture soundtrack on compact disc. Music is always a telltale-Excessive LFE becomes obvious when listening to music cues, the DD version executed the music much more closely to the cd soundtrack low end.
    So, I would guess the DTS track is wrong. I have mentioned this a half dozen times, but no-one seems to care. So much for the persuit of accuracy, I think the modern HTF member is just looking for "more bass" no matter how they get it.
    -Vince
    ------------------
    http://www.musicianassist.com
    AIM: VinceMaskeeper
    Interested in moving into FRONT PROJECTION with huge 6-10 foot widescreen? Buy my whole HDTV-ready CRT based front projection system delivered, cheap! Click here
     
  8. Mark Chan

    Mark Chan Auditioning

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2001
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This is my first post
    What scenes in the movie does the bass seem incorrect?
     
  9. Rob Gillespie

    Rob Gillespie Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 1998
    Messages:
    3,632
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Vince, the thing is - what would Universal do about it? They only changed Jurassic Park because of a boot up the ass by DTS themselves.
     
  10. greg_t

    greg_t Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2001
    Messages:
    1,650
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    110
    I don't know which of the two is correct or not. I do remember that when seeing this movie in the theater, the bass nearly knocked my head off. It was incredibly powerful during the depth charge scene. In terms of theatrical sound, that movie stands out as my best experience. So when watching it on dvd, I want to listen to the soundtrack that resembles that experience as closely as possible, so I choose the dts track. It more closely matches my theatrical experience.
     
  11. David-alexander

    David-alexander Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    May 28, 2001
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    wouarf!!!
    from now on, we will petition for no more bass on dvd! [​IMG]
    does anyone realise how loud and deep a diving grenade sounds when it explodes ?......
    firing a 9MM at arms length is already 130dB SPL so pleeeeeeaaaaaaaaassseeeeee ! [​IMG]
    ok, wrong example since it's not subsonic frequencies.
    try this :
    "Another way to generate a 194dB sound pressure level, besides launching a Saturn rocket, is to detonate 50 pounds of TNT 10 feet away." - Alton Everest, Master Handbook of Acoustics
    The power of the first stage of a Saturn rocket is on the order of 50,000k acoustic watts. This is more an overpressure, like an explosion, as opposed to an acoustic event.
    Above 150 dB some rather strange things begin to happen; shock waves form, frequencies appear that were not in the original signal, and the speed of propagation exceeds that of "normal" sound.
    Stun grenades have been tested and measured to produce 175dB to 183dB at the ear. A Glock17 9mm pistol was measured to produce a peak of 163.5dB linear or 128.5dB(A) blast at the ear (fired at arms length). A Smith and Wesson Model 1000p 12 gauge shotgun produced 158.5dB linear or 131dB(A). A sawed off double barrel would undoubtly be even louder. Groovy. http://members.telocity.com/~eriko/bass/facts_about_bass.html
    [Edited last by David-alexander on August 11, 2001 at 11:15 AM]
     
  12. JulianK

    JulianK Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2000
    Messages:
    843
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't profess to know the technical limitations of the two audio formats, and don't have the sort of set-up that many of the more fanatical HTF members have, but....
    Has it occurred to anyone that the reason that the two mixes are so different is that Dolby Digital is simply not capable of encoding the amount of bass that the DTS mix has?
    Perhaps the DTS version is correct, (or, at least, optimized), and the DD version is unavoidably "light"?
     
  13. Jon D

    Jon D Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2000
    Messages:
    166
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Personally, it is very likely that the DTS track is too hot, bass wise, BUT............
    The bass on the DD does seem a little light for a movie with this much sonic impact in the other channels.
    Vince, I'm not doubting your conclusion at all, it makes perfect sense, but I've heard other movies where the music's low end has been pumped up in the theatrical mix, as opposed to the soundtrack master. It does happen since the music goes through another phase of mixing before the printmaster is created, right?
    ------------------
    Women are often attracted to men with money and power. I have neither, and they know it.
     
  14. Rob Gillespie

    Rob Gillespie Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 1998
    Messages:
    3,632
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  15. Rob Gillespie

    Rob Gillespie Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 1998
    Messages:
    3,632
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    and David. I don't know if you realise this or not, but U571 is a film and not reality. Since you're so sure of yourself, perhaps you prove Vince's (informal) claims wrong with hard facts?
    [Edited last by Rob Gillespie on August 11, 2001 at 04:42 PM]
     
  16. Chris Maynard

    Chris Maynard Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 1998
    Messages:
    644
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah! What Rob said!
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Alex Shk

    Alex Shk Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2000
    Messages:
    195
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    When I watched this dvd (on a rental) - I only had Pro Logic capability. Even though I had a sub at the time, I never experienced the sonic experience many here describe. Now that I have DD/DTS capability, have I missed anything?
    Speaking from years of "audiophilia" (did I just create a new word?), I know that if you have a sub that is too loud, you often get a "pumping" type of distortion that is not evident when there are low frequency signals. It IS possible that the levels were boosted on the dts track - but if extraneous low level distortion doesn't appear in inappropriate places during the soundtrack you can chalk this up to a "mix difference" rather than an unintentional error. Many (most?) movie soundtracks are re-mixed with home usage in mind simply due to the near/far acoustical differences in the listening environment. The real question here is - are the DD and DTS soundtracks mastered from the same source or are they individually mixed? Or does the situation vary from case to case?
    ------------------
     
  18. Sean Oneil

    Sean Oneil Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2001
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    quote:
    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________________
    I have mentioned this a half dozen times, but no-one seems to care. So much for the persuit of accuracy, I think the modern HTF member is just looking for "more bass" no matter how they get it.
    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________________
    Vince, I don't think that it is a case of "no one caring about accuracy" because as it has been mentioned, there is no definitive way to tell which one is accurate -short of consulting with the actual engineers who did the encoding. I think it is simply a case of disagreeing with your opinions.
    To my ears (and many others) the DTS track on U-571 sounds properly balanced, where as the DD track sounds a bit flat (just a bit) in the low end -and tends to get run over by the mid and high frequency SPL's in the mix. As I stated before, I think it was caused by a compromise, which had to be reached due to DD codec limitations in order to maintain an enveloping mix.
    B.T.W. I am not looking for "more bass no matter how I get it" ...I think that 'The Haunting' DTS was way too heavy-handed with respect to the bass mix. But I do not believe that to be the case with U-571 DTS.
     
  19. Sean Oneil

    Sean Oneil Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2001
    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Oh, and Rob, I thought that the primary point to having these types of dynamic digital multi-channel soundtracks was to bring the listening experience closer to reality?
    Were the sound mixers using 'artistic license' by toning down the bass?
     
  20. David-alexander

    David-alexander Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    May 28, 2001
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    eh eh [​IMG]
    ya know, if we don't get into a sub ( note: today's sub are of course much better soundproof than those Uboats) with a Radio Shack SPL meter and measure the explosion of a diving grenade 10meters away ( LOL!!!! ), we will never know wich tracks ( the theatrical, the dolby or the dts on dvd ) was the faithfull one...... [​IMG] it's just that the dts one sounds deeper and tighter (tightness is as important and this is one area where most of the time, dts has the advtantage, low frequencies considered ). we'd need something else than the RS btw, to measure anything under 20hz....... and with a bigger SPL range too [​IMG] ( I guess )
    on JP dinosaurs: since we don't know how a TREX sounded ( note: it probably sounded less loud and room shaking that those of JP/LW, they sound like 50 or 100tons heavy, while the TREX was about 6-8tons max..... take an elephant, a big African one, which weighs around 4-5tons: not loud), we'll never know either which track is faithfull to reality..... but they sure sound more terrorising the way they sounded in theaters, on laserdiscs and on the corrected DTS track [​IMG]
    those film are for entertainment, and entertainment loves nice big bass
     

Share This Page