Two subs makes my system sing. I recommend it for everyone!!! (1 Viewer)

[Jonathan_M]

After reading all the posts in this thread, let me make sure I understand.

1. Surrounds set to small, surround effects being sent to them are played, but the sub 80hz (or whatever you've set your sub crossover to on your reciver) go where? To the sub? Or is that just for the front channels?

2. Surrounds set to large, with the sub connected to the receiver's surround then the surrounds connected to the sub (assuming the sub has speaker level inputs and connections for the speakers), you get the surround effects ALONG with the bass that goes with them?

If 2 is true, I just might have to try this out.

 

[Legairre]

Johnathan,

Your #2 is correct and what a difference it makes.

Jeff,

Having the surround bass kept in the location the mixer intended it to be in makes a big differene. I get the same feeling as you and other who actually have rear subs. Makes you feel more like your in the movie.

My fronts go down to 40hz and having them set to large makes my speakers sound much fuller. Setting them to small sounds thin with not much definition. I'm upgrading to Paradigm Studio 100 that go down to about 25hz. Things should only get better.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

There's definitely compromises to consider in all this.

Bass management allows you to reroute all the bass to a single subwoofer(or multiple subs located together). So the question is...is clean bass >>125 SPL? And at what frequency? Reference SPL is 115 SPL from the subwoofer. 120 SPL is the allowable bass limit without hearing damage.

 

[David Giles]

what kind of main speakers do you have? They are near full range speakers?

Oh heavens no! Please not again!

 

[Ray R]

Just want to point out that when we start talking about sound levels that can damage ears, we are not talking about the same decibels we use to calibrate HT systems.

Generally, information on soundlevels and hearing damage are in the "A" scale which applies a correction factor so that frequencies are weighted according to how much effect they have on the human ear. The "C" scale is used to calibrate HT systems. Play a low frequency test tone and switch your soundlevel meter back and forth between A and C. You will see a big difference.

 

[NathanP]

Dudes,

I have not read this whole thread but, How would I put subs in the rears?

Just plug them in there with the rear speakers?

I've got a nice 3.0 liter box with dual subs and it sounds pretty nice (although they are just car subwoofers) but I'm always looking to add-on.

Now, I have some of my old subs and an extra amp laying around..

So, the question is:

How do I hook up rear subwoofers?

Nathan

 

[Richard Burzynski]

Tom:

Assuming optimal placement for both scenarios, what is your opinion on stereo subs (bass) for the front of the room. Worth the trouble, or does multiple mono yield the same qualitative results?

Thanks.

Rich B.

 

[Legairre]

Nathan,
Your sub has to have speaker level ins and outs. I have one for each pair of surrounds. Here' how you hook them up:
One rear sub setup
Left surround
1.) Run the left surround speaker wire from the receiver to the LEFT HIGH LEVEL INPUT(pos and neg) on the back of the sub.
2.) Attatch another speaker wire from the subs LEFT HIGH LEVEL OUTPUT(pos and neg) and run that to the surround speaker.
Right surround
3.) Run the right surround speaker wire from the receiver to the RIGHT HIGH LEVEL INPUT(pos and neg) on the back of the sub.
4.) Attatch another speaker wire from the subs RIGHT HIGH LEVEL OUTPUT(pos and neg) and run that to the surround speaker.
5.) Set the subs crossover about 3hz below the surround speakers cutoff point.
Two rear sub setup
Left surround to LEFT SUB
1.) Run the left surround speaker wire from the receiver to the LEFT HIGH LEVEL INPUT(pos and neg) on the back of the sub.
2.) Attatch another speaker wire from the subs LEFT HIGH LEVEL OUTPUT(pos and neg) and run that to the surround speaker.
3.) Set the subs crossover about 3hz below the surround speakers cutoff point.
Right surround to RIGHT SUB
1.) Run the right surround speaker wire from the receiver to the RIGHT HIGH LEVEL INPUT(pos and neg) on the back of the sub.
2.) Attatch another speaker wire from the subs RIGHT HIGH LEVEL OUTPUT(pos and neg) and run that to the surround speaker.
3.) Set the subs crossover about 3hz below the surround speakers cutoff point.
You may have to play around with the crossover that works best for you.

 

[Richard Burzynski]

Legairre:

How do you determine rear sub volume level? I realize that channel balancing will still be done at the prepro/receiver level, but you can adjust the rear sub volume almost anywhere. How do you get a good balanced "mix" of rear speaker to rear sub volumes.

Thanks.

Rich B.

 

[BruceD]

Legairre:

Now this is pretty confusing, you recommend to

quote:

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Set the subs crossover about 3db below the surround speakers cutoff point.

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What do you mean by 3dB below a surround speakers cutoff point (let's say the surround has a low frequency spec of -3dB @70Hz) ?

What would be the crossover frequency on the sub for the surround speaker example above?

BruceD

 

[Richard Burzynski]

Bruce:

Maybe he means hz instead of db in that particular quote.

Rich B.

 

[Bob_A]

There's some severe limitations in depending on a *full range* speakers for bass in a HT.

There are compromises in ANY setup. I am sure that someone could argue that there are severe limitations in depending on a corner-loaded external sub for everything below 80Hz in a HT.

Why would we want to give advice to a new user which will effectively limit his options?

 

[Bob_A]

However, by optimizing your system for those few seconds...you are compromising the performance of the system the rest of the time.

Not necessarily. It all depends on preferences. Someone might actually prefer one presentation over another. This is why I recommend that new users keep all their options open.

 

[Bob_A]

Oh heavens no! Please not again!

You aren't going to see any mudslinging from me...just some feedback which I hope will be useful for new users and old users alike.

 

[Legairre]

Oop, sorry guys Richard is correct I did mean hz. My brain was thinking hz but my fingers were typing db.

My rear speakers only go down to 75hz. I started about 3hz below 75hz and it still didn't sound right so I finally ended up at about a 65hz subwoofer crossover for the rear subs. Since crossovers aren't a brick wall I could have just as easily started out at 3hz above the speakers cutoff and played around with the crossover from there. Either way seting the crossover takes time.

Setting the volume level on the rear subs is easy because the Avia DVD provides a subwoofer calibration for speaker level connected subs. There's a speaker level subwoofer calibration on the DVD for the front left and right as well as rear left and right channels. Works real well.

Once you get it mixed right you'll swear you have a full range speaker in the rear instead of a small speaker hanging in the air and a sub on the floor. If the volume and crossover are not right you can easily get a gap between the surround and the sub.

 

[Shad R]

Ok, here's my set-up...a tad off the subject, but it kind of relates...

My JBL radiance series speakers woofers' recently blew out..so I replaced them with Radio Shack replacement woofers(hey, I'm broke, and until I have saved the money to get anything better, they will do). I then bought a 12 inch KLH sub...it's pretty good for under $200, and it's 200 watt powered, and the bass extension (24 hz) sounds nice. I rehooked my stuff up...I now have my JBL LFE ONLY, and I'm running my fronts as Large, with the KLH sub taking the bass from my fronts and my center(set to small, which, if I understood correctly, sends the center bass to the fronts). My JBL is in one corner, my KLH in the other...and it sounds WONDERFUL!!! there is no cancelation, becuase when I turn off one sub or the other, it doesn't sound as good. I suggest this for people who have smaller or blown front woofers.

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Shad,

Just because you get louder sound with both subs running, that doesn’t mean you aren’t getting some cancellation. The half-way point between the two subs acts like a boundary, so you will get cancellation at a specific frequency. You can calculate the frequency with the formula 1130/D x .3, where D = distance. For instance, if your subs are 12ft. apart you are getting cancellation at 56Hz. If you think they sound good in separate corners, there is no reason not to put them both in the same corner.

Legairre,

I have to wonder about this:

For instance when a movie like the Patriot was mixed with an explosion in the left rear speaker. That sound was ment to be heard in the left rear speaker. Otherwise the person who did the mix would have put that explosion in the LFE if they wanted it to go the the LFE subwoofer. Having that explosion come from the left rear and not LFE subwoofer in the front of the room makes a huge difference in the impact a movie has in terms of realism. Isn't the feeling of actually being there in the battle what were all after.

Anyone who has been to a theater will notice that they do not have subs at the surround locations, only the front.

I’ve typically supported the sub-in-the-corner protocol, for no cancellation/best response/lowest extension/highest SPL reasons, but I can see how a program’s intermittent use of the extra subs would negate the cancellation and response issues. However, the minute they utilize multiple subs, those issues are back.

That said, if all the surround subs are doing is adding a little localized “boom,” then frequency-specific cancellation doesn’t matter much.

But regardless, it is a good idea to turn off those extra subs when listening to music.

Interesting thread!

Regards,

Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[felix_suwarno]

if multiple subs is a better solution, how come dolby and dts didnt do a 6.2 setup? are they a step behind or what? with that kind of setup, they will help lots of speaker manufacturers on the planet to sell more subwoofers.

 

[Legairre]

Wayne,

I'd have to agree with you when it comes to music and multiple subs. In my room I've tried using the multiple subs in 5 channel stereo mode and LOTS of cancellations. It just doesn't work well. But on movies I don't get the cancellations. It just sounds great.

Oh yeah, It's been a while since I've seen you on the same thread as me. Once again thanks for the help with my dedicated circuit last month.

Dolby and DTS don't need to do 6.2 because the .2 would just be another LFE. We're talking about speaker level connected subs not LFE. But Dolby and DTS both put full range material in all 5 channels. Not all the time, but both are capable of full range in all 5 channels and do sometimes put it in them.

I've also tried using my center as large but it sounded like crap, way to muddy and bloated. So my center is always set to small.

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Oh yeah, It's been a while since I've seen you on the same thread as me. Once again thanks for the help with my dedicated circuit last month.

Glad everything turned out alright.
Speaking of dedicated circuits, did you catch this thread? A lot of great info.
Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt