two questions about fancy restaurants (1 Viewer)

[Bruce Hedtke]

If it takes two hands, you won't need the meal to impress your date.

Bruce

 

[Benny G]

Thanks to everyone for your advice.

Just a few things from me.

She's not my wife, just a special lady friend.

This fancy restaurant I'm going to is certainly not in Lansing, MI. I don't live there anymore, either. I'm going to Acquerello in San Francisco.

I'm not at all nervous about the restaurant and I know I'll enjoy it (and I'm sure laugh) a lot. I just wanted to be sure I didn't do something discourteous to the restaurant and/or its employees.

 

[Kyle McKnight]

Heh, I wonder how many people got that??

 

[Peter Kim]

Heh, heh...hopefully BB doesn't enter into the high-end restaurant domain.

Glad the OP brought up this topic. I've never been to an ultra, high-end restaurant. I'd like to take my wife to Charlie Trotter's in Chicago for our 10th next year, her dream restaurant. Or perhaps Tru.

But I'm somewhat intimidated by dining at either place. Haven't a clue about how much to tip (I've always tipped 20% at normal places when I was pleased with the service). Wasn't sure whether this is considered gauche for a connoisseur's delight like CT or Tru.

So it sounds like I should tip about 25-30% and also tip the sommelier about 20% too? General consensus?

 

[Jeff Gatie]

20% is the usual for good service. The thing is, merely "good" service is not what you get at these types of places. You typically get "pampered to your heart's delight" at a high end place. Often it is so good, you do not even notice it. Things I have noticed at fine dining establishments:

- Instead of one server bringing out the food, they have a server for each plate and they simultaneously place it in front of each diner.

- A diner can be engaged in conversation and look up to see that his/her water or wine glass has been filled, but they didn't even see it happen.

- Leave to use the restroom and come back to find your napkin folded and tented on your seat, again without being seen.

- The server is able to tell you every ingredient in a dish and the exact preparation technique.

- Crumbs are swept away (into a miniature dustpan) and soiled linens are replaced between courses.

- Often the meal is served with an intermezzo (sherbert or sorbet to "cleanse the palate") in between courses and/or an amuse bouche (to wake up the palate) to start. These are usually not on the menu and a pleasant addition to the meal. Had an amuse bouche at a resort in Lake Placid this year that was as good as any dish on the menu and it was just a simple leek soup served in a small ramekin.

- The wine is served in a perfect glass for the type, (i.e a balloon for strong reds), not just a generic wine glass. If you switch wines (even to the same type/color), they supply new glasses of a (possibly) different type to match the wine.

- The server goes out of their way to be attentive, but not invasive; available, yet not hovering; suggestive, but not pushy. They also go out of their way to make the guest look good, often skillfully covering up for any lack of knowledge the diner may have.

- I have had drinks or dessert comp'ed by the server for as small a mistake as getting a drink order wrong or having some piddling ingredient wrong when describing a dish. This is without asking and no complaining, just making it known for their benefit.

This is just a partial list.

 

[Peter Kim]

Thank you Jeff. I've often seen Ming Tsai shows on both PBS & Food Channel and he appears very enthusiastic and passionate about his work. Good to hear that you enjoyed your meal that much.

Often wondered whether these celebrity chefs are worth their salt.

As an aside, my wife's passion is cooking - bought her a Kyocera Ming Tsai signature ceramic chef's knife on her birthday long ago. Bleeding edge (actually, the duller the knife, the more dangerous).

 

[Jeff Gatie]

I had to look it up Benny, the menu looks heavenly. Just my choices would be:

1st course
Carpaccio of sea bass drizzled with Sicilian olive oil lemon zest and threads of green onion (never had sea bass carpaccio, I imagine it's great)

2nd course
Ridged pasta with foie gras, scented with black truffles

-or-

Succulent ragu’ of duck tossed with garganelli

Main course
Herb roasted loin of veal, deglazed with red wine in its own sauce of guanciale, porcini mushrooms and pearl onions

Dessert
Coconut roasted pineapple napoleon passion fruit sauce, basil syrup

-or-

House made vanilla gelato with aged “Balsamico Tradizionale” di Modena (just to taste gelato with good aged balsamic, yummm)

I envy you, Bon appetit!

 

[Jeff Gatie]

The local food critic show, "The Phantom Gourmet" ranked it number 1 outside of Boston and in the top 3 in New England last year. The food is that good. It is not as high scale as some when it comes to service (a bit more casual, but just a bit) but the food is as good or better than I've had anywhere in the world.

 

[Lew Crippen]

Pick out the wines for your choices, Jeff.

 

[Peter Kim]

I'm always surprised by how many closet connoisseurs reside on this board. Although given the propensity to pursue their passions evident by the fact that by merely being a member here probably gains automatic entry into 'damn the torpedos' status with respect to interests...guess it's not too surprising after all.

Great choices, Jeff. I've always wanted to try real, tradizionale balsamico (gold seal preferable). And the ridged pasta would also be my first choice, but since I'm from MN, the Carnaroli risotto with braised morel mushrooms and snap peas sounds just my style.

Lew, we're closing ground with every bite!

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Not much of a (unfortified) wine guy, I usually leave it up to my companions. Desserts and ports are my area, but I'll try. I'd probably go with a glass of sauvignon with the tartar, or something even crisper like a chardonay. A good pinot would go great with the next two, even the veal because of the dark sauce, or break the mold and go with the contrast of the Gevurzt (at $58 it must be great), simply because I like german styles (though I would not choose it with the foie gras). After the meal I would head right for the Fonseca's 1970 port, just because I've had it before and it was really good. I'd be tempted by the 1955 Sandeman Bottle, but too rich for my blood.

Edit, I just saw the desserts. I would get the Moscato Passito with the napoleon and the Vin Santo Fattoria di Montigliari with the gelato. Or maybe just an espresso, so I can drive home.:b

 

[Lew Crippen]

I usually take taxis when dinning at places of this class. Even without the wine, I like to just relax and completely enjoy the total experience without the hassle of city driving.

Personally I am a sucker for tasting menus, usually with matching wines. And the sample tasting menu and accompanying wines really looks good. I'd probably try that, given that I've never eaten at Acquerello. $100 seems very reasonable.

But from the main menu, I'd try this:

To start I'll have a glass of very dry Sherry. Something like Tío Pepe is what I have in mind. If the list included some Sherrys with which I was unfamiliar, I'd ask for a recommendation. As an alternative and since this is an Italian restaurant, I might begin with a Campari and soda--very low in alcohol and quite astringent, just the thing to begin.

For the entreé, I'm with Jeff as to the sea bass carpaccio. With this I'll have a glass of the Vueve Clicquot, my favorite Champagne that is not named Krug or Bollinger (and is not one of the super premium bottles). As an alternative and if I had to keep to Italy, I'd select the Prosecceo. This should be light enough to not overpower the rest of the meal. I'm intrigued with squab as a starter, but it might get things off to just a bit too heavy of a beginning. If I skip the pasta course, I choose the squab.

Now for the pasta, where I would pick the asparagus tortellini. I am intrigued with the risotto, but it would not match well with the side in my main choice. Wine with asparagus is always an issue, but I have the perfect solution: a bottle of Podere dei Blumeri, a Pinot Grigio, which should be quite flavorful, but not as assertive as a Chardonnay for example, and should complement the pasta and asparagus very nicely. Before choosing I'll ask about the Alteni di Brassica which might be the best match, but at $115 the bottle I want a second opinion (and strong recommendation). But if the sommelier really thinks that it is the right choice, I'll opt for it.

I'm picking the pepper crusted pork loin with mustard greens and polenta as for my main course. A nice big finish to what has gone before. The polenta (the reason for not choosing rice before) should be just the bland contrast to the pork. For this, I'm pulling out all the stops and ordering a bottle of Barolo--probably the Bruno Giacosa, leaving the Riserva for another night. Of course, with so many choices on this fine wine list, I'll again consult with the sommelier.

Now for the double-barreled finish. To step down from the pork, I'll have the gelato and balsamic vineger, just the right combination of simple, sweet and sharp flavors to back off from the main course. The aged vineger should have just enough complexity to give the dish interest.

And now the cheese. You cannot have a meal like this without a cheese course and again I'll ask for an opinion. My inclination is to think that the suggested Recioto della Valpolicella will be a disappointment after the Barolo and if so, I'll have a glass of the Croft '63. If I'm sharing with Jeff and like-minded port fanatics, we can order up the '53 Sandeman.

Espresso to finish. Perhaps with a grappa.

Taxi home.

Now this might seem like it would cost a lot, but I figure that the host of the thread is paying (and should after such sage advice).

And Peter, you are right.

 

[Lew Crippen]

And one more thing. For those who morn the passing of ER and his posts laden with information and opinion, as much as I enjoyed reading his reviews and comments, I don't recall that he had much to say in the world of food.

There is life left in the HTF.

 

[Holadem]

So what qualifies as "fine dining"?

The most I ever shelled out on a diner for 2 was $250 at Smith and Wollensky (NYC).

While the food was good (the single biggest steak I have ever seen...), I was uninpressed with the wait staff. Certainly not the pampering described above.

So I wonder where this place fits as far as dining goes...

--
H

 

[Lew Crippen]

I've actually eaten at a Smith & Wollensky in mid-town. It was after comming back from a Yankees game with my son (who was then living in NYC). We just wanted a place to get a burger and a beer or a glass of red. We found both and it was a good meal, but even if I had been dropping big money and not just grabbing a burger, I would not class it as fine dinning--even though they do have a very fine wine list (if expensive).

For me, just a big steak, no matter how good or costly will not be fine dinning. I like to be able to choose from food created by someone with some imignation who has created interesting dishes (simple or complex) and put a few together so that the whole meal comes together. All with appropiate beverages, of course.

I expect that the waiter and sommelier to be as interested in food and wine as am I (and be more knowledgeable), and that they will share their view of the food and wine with me and give good advice.

This actually does not need to cost that much money. Look again at the tasting menu of the place under discussion. Four courses with matching wine for $100.

BTW, I'm always happy to dine in a diner. Just so the food is good.

 

[Joey Skinner]

If the meal was bad you need to see the manager and not take it out on the server (unless of course the service was bad also).

 

[GuruAskew]

Rudy will await your foundation.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

I'm with Lew about the "fine dining" vs. dining. If I go to a "fine dining" place, I always want to see something creative and interesting on the menu. My worst problem when going to these places is having to choose between the dish/ingredient I've never had before and the one that is my favorite, prepared creatively. My choices above reveal my usual strategy for solving this. I chose the sea bass carpaccio (for those that do not know, carpaccio is thinly sliced or pounded meat, usually beef, that is served raw, with a drizzel of olive oil and garnishes), because it is a favorite with a new and different meat. My next course is an exotic (foie gras) served in pasta, another new preparation for me; or duck, my current favorite dish which I cannot get enough of. My last was an old standby, veal, which I adore.

Luckily for me, I usually dine with people who are not shy about passing forks or even plates around the table for others to sample. It may be fine dining, but it is more fun to experience as a group and if it means breaking decorum, I'll do it.

Which brings me to another point. Like Lew, I don't think a steak is fine dining, although most places will have a steak on the menu (and it is probably better than 99% of the steaks out there). It sometimes bugs me when a person who is a little tentative goes right for the steak, because it is "safe". I like to be adventurous and my companions are usually those who feel the same (hence the passing of plates). But every once in a while you get a person that will order the "safe" dish instead of the duck ragu or foie gras, which means I either have to order two appetizers or miss out on tasting an interesting dish (it's selfish, I know:b). I used to date this lady and I'd take her to an amazing Northern Italian establishment and she always ordered the chicken parm (the only dish with red sauce on the menu and should have had "for those that can't read the rest of the menu" printed in bold after it). All these great dishes with reduction sauces and rich, hearty preparations and she went for the red sauce and mozzarella. Used to drive me nuts (and cost me extra, because I'd end up ordering a couple extra dishes for me). Now I try to get the "do you eat sushi" and "have you ever had osso bucco" questions out early in a relationship.

Again, like Lew, I'll gladly eat at a diner or a clam shack and enjoy it, when the mood suits. I'm not a snob, I enjoy all kinds of food. I just sometimes enjoy experiencing the best the food world has to offer and for that nothing beats a place with 4 or 5 stars next to the name, because you get to see perfection at work and are rarely disappointed.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Lew, I just saw this and I want you to know this is what my dad ordered before dinner every time he went out. He passed in 2000 and my brother now ceremoniously serves him one every Father's Day. Since it's coming up, I find this quite touching. My dad had tastes similar to yours (in other words, excellent - and was much better with wine than I am), which I consider high praise for both of you. Thanks for the memory.

 

[Don Black]

Everything was awful. Even more so for a Top 10 NYC restaurant.