Two Godfather II plot questions(SPOILERS) (MERGED THREAD) (1 Viewer)

[Greg_Y]

A few things:

RC, I don't think the two (death of Fabrizio / death of Pentangelli) are related, or that elements from one were necessarily taken for the other. Fabrizio's death was shot for inclusion in GFII and is available as a deleted scene. I don't think that the Michael-sends-his-regards line was moved to the Pentangelli character. I think they're just similar in that it fits the Michael character.

Secondly,
What exactly did Fredo do? He gave information to Johnny Ola, but what information? How to get into the compound at the lake? Or that Michael was having reservations about dealing with Roth?

My thinking is this: Fredo didn't think the information or help he gave was of any consequence, only that it would jar Michael and maybe allow him to get a bigger piece of something family related. Thus, it doesn't sound like he gave information about how to "get to" Michael.

I'm still a bit confused as to when Michael figures out what's going on. He goes to Roth, feels him out and possibly gathers enough data to know that he was behind the attempted hit. Then he goes right to Pentangelli and yells at him. Maybe to see if he would break. To see if Roth and Pentangelli were in cahoots (?).

 

[Howard Williams]

What exactly did Fredo do? He gave information to Johnny Ola, but what information? How to get into the compound at the lake? Or that Michael was having reservations about dealing with Roth?

I'm no expert but these were my impressions. Since the hit on Michael occurred soon after Michael returned from some trip I figured Fredo gave him information as to when Michael would be back at the house. It may have been innocent but he should have known better. I think Michael hated Fredo because he was to stupid to see that OLa and Roth were using him. Fredo wasn't smart enough to see all the angles. Michael always respected intelligence, and clever moves. Remember his respect for Tessio and slight distain for Clemenza. In reference to Tessio putting together the hit on Michael:
Tom Hayden: "I always thought it would be Clemenza (that betrayed Michael)
Michael:"It's a smart/good move for Tessio. He was always smarter than Clemenza"
You could see that Michael respected that. In GFII we see Michael develop into a totally ruthless Gangster.

The fact that Fredo lied about his relationship with Ola tells me he had something to hide. Something he didn't want Michael to know about. This is what really pissed off Michael, Fredo putting outsiders ahead of the family.

 

[Robert Crawford]

RC, I don't think the two (death of Fabrizio / death of Pentangelli) are related, or that elements from one were necessarily taken for the other. Fabrizio's death was shot for inclusion in GFII and is available as a deleted scene. I don't think that the Michael-sends-his-regards line was moved to the Pentangelli character. I think they're just similar in that it fits the Michael character.

Greg,
You're welcome to your opinion but I stand by mine! Also, the killing of Fabrizio was changed from a shooting to a car bombing which made the line I quoted immaterial to Fabrizio's death, but Coppola probably loved the line and thus inserted it into the scene involving Pentangelli.


Crawdaddy

 

[Marshall Alsup]

I agree that it was Roth that did the hit. Mainly because when Michael questions him about it later he says that Michael shouldn't worry about it since Roth didn't worry about it when they whacked Moe Green. Basically I took that to mean that Roth is saying "Hey, I didn't get pissed when you whacked Moe, so now you shouldn't get pissed that I whacked Pentangelli. It's just business."

-Marshall

 

[Dome Vongvises]

SOOOOOOO, in other words, Hyman Roth really didn't mean to kill Frank Pentangali? I mean, that's the only explanation I have for the killer saying "Micheal Corleone says hello" and half-assing the killing. Otherwise, what's the point of putting the blame on somebody else if the killers were going to kill Frank outright anyways? That part of the story always bothered me.

 

[bob_b]

Dome, you've hit the nail on the head. That ALWAYS bothered me as well. Why Lie to a dead man? Unless its NOT a lie!! I'm no Godfather expert but I always believed Michael ordered the hit, until I read this thread. Now I'm not I'm not sure of anything????

 

[RussR]

I always felt that Michael knew immediately that Roth was behind the bedroom assassination attempt. He didn't immediately deal with it for two reasons: he wanted the Cuba deal to happen and he had to find out who was the traitor in the family. He went to see Roth, 'asking' permission to hit Frankie, on the surface a gesture of respect to Roth. In reality, of course, he wanted Roth to believe that he (Michael) didn't suspect Roth at all. Roth's comment about Pentangeli being 'small potatoes' meant that killing Pentangeli wouldn't harm the Cuba deal or cause concern to Roth. Michael was completely honest, I believe, with Frankie when he visited him. So, Pentangeli set up the meeting to make peace with the Rosato brothers, as Michael requested. In the meantime, Roth has given the Rosatos permission to kill Pentangeli, since he believes Michael is going to do it anyway in the near future. I don't believe that the attempt on Frankie wasn't meant to succeed or was simply to prime him as a federal witness. I think the "Michael Corleone says 'hello'" was, in fact, a final cruel insult; it's one thing to be killed by someone you know is an enemy, but quite another to die at the order of someone you thought was your friend.

My question about GFII has always been who killed the assassins after the botched bedroom hit? Are we supposed to believe that Fredo did it?

 

[Anthony_H]

I'm glad others are unsure as to the complete plot of this film...as it has plagued me as well for many years. The lack of consensus in response seems to imply others don't get it either. Hmmmmm

 

[Josh Davidson]

You were warned:

1. Why did Michael have Fredo killed? Was it because he still didn't trust him? It seemed kind of moot, since he was having Roth killed anyways.

2. Why did Frankie kill himself? I remember Tom and him talking about how the Romans would commit suicide when they knew they were in trouble, so I'm figuring he figured that was the easiest way out.

 

[Ben Osborne]

This is my understanding: Michael had Fredo killed because Fredo betrayed him to Hyman Roth. Fredo was the one who made the assassination attempt on Michael and his family possible. Michael never forgave him for that. It goes back to part where Michael warned Fredo, "never take anyone else's side against the family."

Frankie Pentangeli killed himself because the Corleone family would have killed him otherwise. He was going to testify agaist the family in the Senate hearings but only didn't because they threatened his brother.

I'm sure some people here will be able to elaborate on this.

Best movie ever, IMO.

 

[Jim DiJoseph]

Josh, my take:
1. Yes, Fredo had already betrayed Michael. Who's to say that he wouldn't be dumb enough to try something similar in the future? (And I phrase that question purposefully because it was Fredo's ignorance that ultimately led him astray.)
2. Once again, yes. Frankie realized that he was ultimately screwed. His brother would have been eliminated if he hadn't withdrawn his testimony, and certainly he knew that he would have been killed as soon as the Feds turned him loose. He had no other recourse in his own mind.
Hope that helps - and hope anyone who disagrees would feel free to chime in.
Edit: Obviously Ben posted a second ahead of me, so you'll forgive the redundancy.

 

[Yee-Ming]

I think it was also a little more than that, Frankie had to die, so that the Feds' case against Michael would end there and then. if he continued to live, even if he refused to testify (as was the case when he attended the hearing and his brother showed up for the first time with Michael), no doubt the Feds would've have continued to pressure him, and would not have dropped the case against Michael in the hope that they could persuade/force Frankie to testify. only his death would end the case.

it's a bit more than just knowing that the Corleones would hit him after he left custody, hence the allusion to plots against Roman emperors: the protaganists had to die to end the threat, even if they were in custody or exile.

at least that's my take on it. YMMV.

 

[Josh Davidson]

Ok, so when Frankie killed himself, he still believed that Michael was behind his murder attempt?

 

[Michael Reuben]

Listen very carefully to the conversation between Frankie and Tom Hagen. They're making a deal -- in code. (They're on an army base surrounded by FBI men; so they have to assume someone's listening.)

Tom reminds Frankie of how, when a plot failed, the plotters were always given a chance to end things honorably.

Frankie points out to Tom that, if the plotters killed themselves, "their families were taken care of".

Tom agrees that it's a good break.

In essence, Hagen is telling Frankie that he's a loose end they have to tie up, and Frankie tells Tom that he'll take care of it as long as his "family" (probably in both senses of the word) is well-treated. And they shake hands.

Why did Michael have Fredo killed?

Because he made himself Michael's enemy -- and as Michael tells Tom, "I don't have to wipe out everybody. Just my enemies." Fredo would have been killed immediately after they returned from Cuba, if not for Michael's desire to spare his mother the pain of losing another son (he tells Neri that nothing is to happen to Fredo while their mother is still alive).

M.

 

[Johnny V]

In response to #2: I didn't think that Frankie's brother was in danger from Michael. He was there to "shame" Frankie into not being a rat. He didn't want his brother to see him doing something dishonorable. I can't remember what exactly was said, but if you listen to how Michael explains the sudden switch to Kaye, it has something to do with not being disrespectful/dishonorable in front of family.

 

[JonZ]

My take was the same as Michaels. If Frankie kills himself,ending all hope for a Federal investigation,his family will be provided for.


"He was there to "shame" Frankie into not being a rat. He didn't want his brother to see him doing something dishonorable."

Correct.

Regarding Fredo, remember what Michael said to him in The Godfather "Fredo, your my brother and I love you, but dont ever take sides with anyone against the family again"

Fredo was a traitor so he had to be killed.Michael waited becuase he didnt want to break his mothers heart.

 

[ShawnF]

While we're talking Godfather II: Senator Geary at the motel with the dead girl. Is it safe to assume that the Corleone family drugged him and killed the girl?

It seems too obvious to everyone but Senator Geary that the family was involved but they never go beyond this scene and the Senator changing his stance at the hearing.

 

[Chris_Richard]

Yes the Corleone family drugged the girl. The Senator probably figured it out when he recovered from the shock. But what can he do.

He either keeps his job and gains the support of the family or he is either killed or the scandal comes to light and he stops being Senator.

 

[Dome Vongvises]

The Godfather Part II is my fourth favorite movie of all time. I've watched it several times, but I'm still a little clueless into how exactly did Fredo betray Micheal. Did he simply reveal the location of Micheal's bedroom? That hardly seems like top secret information to me.

 

[Yee-Ming]

can't remember the details, but my guess is Fredo must have helped the hitmen enter the compound (which had pretty tight security IIRC), perhaps by pointing out blind spots or giving other such inside knowledge.

and actually knowledge of the actual room might not necessarily be open, if the hitmen did not have the opportunity to "case" the place prior to the hit, bearing in mind that the house was located in a private compound and not facing the street like most ordinary folks'.