Tweeter and a Super Tweeter ..............

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Scott Simonian, Jul 5, 2001.

  1. Scott Simonian

    Scott Simonian Screenwriter

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    ......ok, what really is the difference between them? Supposedly, the ST is better at high(er) frequencies. Right? I dont really know what to think of them. They are very rare in consumer products. Allthough now they are coming back for their high frequency response for DVD-A and SACD.
    Anyway, I want to know if one is better than the other and pros and cons and that stuff. If they have the same charateristics, then why not just use STs?
    Ugh !!! This topic has been frustrating me for years.
    Any info would be cool. [​IMG]
     
  2. Scott Simonian

    Scott Simonian Screenwriter

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    up.
     
  3. Scott Simonian

    Scott Simonian Screenwriter

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    Up.
     
  4. Julian Data

    Julian Data Second Unit

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    IMHO, what's the purpose in creating a high frequency tweeter that surpasses the envelope of human hearing?
    Perhaps, dogs may care but I surely don't. [​IMG]
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  5. Greg Monfort

    Greg Monfort Supporting Actor

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    It's mostly about their frequency/power response. A tweeter is a fairly wide BW driver, and like any other begins beaming at ~1WL of its diameter, so its off-axis power response falls with increasing frequency as does its FR, though at a slower rate. A super tweeter OTOH usually is designed for a much more limited BW, so doesn't fall off in the audible BW, and has a much better off-axis power response.
    GM
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    Loud is beautiful, if it's clean
     
  6. AjayM

    AjayM Screenwriter

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    Well, it all depends on your hearing. My hearing starts to drop off around 17-18Khz, but I can get up to around 24-25Khz before I really stop hearing anything (and that may be the headphones I was using, cheap $15 model)...now I obviously don't hear things at that range as loud as in the middle of "human hearing" range, but I can still hear them. And with SACD coming out (and records long before) you have a nice extended range, that you will hear the difference in, it will just be semi-small. Hence the need for a super tweeter, or maybe you are building a set of speakers like ThomasW's current project where the ribbon drops off around 15-17Khz.
    Andrew
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  7. Scott Simonian

    Scott Simonian Screenwriter

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    Thats like what I was going to do !
    I am (hopefully) going to have a ribbon as the main HF driver (with some dome, horn, or something below it for MR), and a supertweeter like a bullet or dome ubove 17khz and so forth.
    Ok, that sounded like I didnt write that very well. Ugh.
    OH OH, are bullet tweeters good? Are domes better? (not counting ribbons)
     
  8. Greg Monfort

    Greg Monfort Supporting Actor

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    >Well, it all depends on your hearing.
    ====
    Actually it doesn't. I can't hear above ~14kHz, but I can tell if there's a super tweeter (if there's a signal of course) being used. Once upon a time I had a link to an interesting tech article explaining how we perceive them through bone/tissue vibrations, but I can't find it right now.
    GM
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    Loud is beautiful, if it's clean
     
  9. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    quote: I am (hopefully) going to have a ribbon as the main HF driver (with some dome, horn, or something below it for MR), and a supertweeter like a bullet or dome ubove 17khz and so forth[/quote]
    You might want to read up speaker theory, line source vs point sources, etc, etc. Speaker design unlike ordering Chinese food, isn't chosing one item from column A and another from column B. [​IMG]
     
  10. Scott Simonian

    Scott Simonian Screenwriter

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    Ok, what do you think then ?
     
  11. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    quote: Ok, what do you think then ?[/quote]
    I think that tweeter vs supertweeter is primarily marketing hype. And that the internet isn't a substitute for cracking a book.
    Any decent tweeter will be flat to 20+Khz, so that's pretty much it for the upper limit of human hearing. Now if you want to attract bats, that's a different story.
    Regarding the 100Khz SACD stuff. I've got a Sony 777ES player and leaf tweeters that go up to 50Khz. But even using extremely wide bandwidth amplifiers, no one I know can hear a difference between the "Custom" vs "Normal" settings.
     
  12. Scott Simonian

    Scott Simonian Screenwriter

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    Ok, it sounds like it would be a bad idea and a waste of money if I add some sort of Ultra high frequency driver with the ribbon.
    Ok ok. No problem. I just want detailed (VERY) HF that is suited for movies. Ive made the choice to go with ribbon anyway over just a dome because I cant pass on the best transient response.
    What about using more than one ribbon? Can I achieve anything with this. (not for extending BW, but for sound quality and the like)
     
  13. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    As for duplicating the newest Klone-Audio prototype it appears that the only driver capable of providing the proper top end fill is the Raven 2. And unfortunately it will take a mininium of 4/side. That comes to approx $2500+ just for the "tweeters".
    Remember that the vertical dispersion of leaf/planar/ribbon tweeters is limited to the height of the radiating element. A single Raven 2 is approx 6" tall, as a result the "sweet spot" is limited to 6" for each unit used. It severely limits shaking your head in time to the music and staying in the sweet spot. [​IMG]
    The best bang for the buck in planars is the Yag-2 sold by Madisound/Stryke/Speaker City for approx $33ea. We recently CLIO tested these and unfortunately they roll off the top octave, not much different from the B&G RD planars. It maybe possible to boost them with a little EQ but we haven't had time to experiment with that just yet.
    Yag-2
    [​IMG]
    RD75
    [​IMG]
    BTW, there's an Audax titanium dome that's flat to almost 40Khz. Dave Wilson uses them as ambient tweeters in the X1-Grand SLAMMS. They can be purchased for about $35ea
     
  14. Scott Simonian

    Scott Simonian Screenwriter

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    Ah yes that was the ribbon I was looking at; the Hi-Vi one. I saw it at speaker city for about $30.
    I wasnt really looking for something that went ULTRA HIGH. Because I know that I can only hear to about ~20khz. I just want something taht will beat the pants off my friend.
    He has a pair of custom built Marantz loudspeakers that were made by someone who used to work for them. It contains a 12" woofer, 4"cone midrange, 2"dome-midrange, (2)1"dome-supertweeter.
    Now, I love the detail in these babies. All Im really asking for is how to beat them.
    Unforunatly, the guy who made them did not give us very much information on anything in the speaker so I have no details on the drivers other than that they ARE Marantz and the things I told you up above.
     
  15. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    Marantz hold no special meaning for me as far as speakers are concerned. And a 4-way has too many filters....the fewer the number of XO points the better IMHO....
    Any of the exotic material (ie nonpoly) European drivers from Eton, ScanSpeak, Focal, Cabasse' etc will most likely give you the detail you're looking for.
    Regarding tweeters Jon and I are partial to the Focal TC120Tdx2. Now there are detractors that think these are to bright. Our experience is that they are detailed and reveling. Combined with properly designed XO they certainly aren't bright.
    A well designed MTM configuration combined with a good sub will trounce most 4-way designs
     
  16. Greg Monfort

    Greg Monfort Supporting Actor

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    >Any decent tweeter will be flat to 20+Khz,.....
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    Unfortunately, based on this I've never found many decent tweeters......especially off-axis.
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    .....(2)1"dome-supertweeter
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    If they're 1" domes, they probably aren't true super tweeters unless they have phase plugs to control dispersion. Not likely considering the brand. 3/4" dia or less is normally needed for ST off-axis response.
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    >A well designed MTM configuration combined with a good sub will trounce most 4-way designs
    =====
    You bet!
    GM
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    Loud is beautiful, if it's clean
     
  17. Scott Simonian

    Scott Simonian Screenwriter

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    A well designed MTM configuration combined with a good sub will trounce most 4-way designs
    Really? Ugh. All the 3+ way speakers I hear allmost allways sound better than MTM speakers. Its just my opinion though. MTM speakers are yours too so Im not gonna rag on them. It just seems like I enjoy multi-way speakers more. I think it might be a mental thing. "more is better" I might be thinking.
    Really though, I do enjoy 3+ way speakers more.
    As for the STs being STs, that is very interesting. They do have what looks more like level controls next to the 3 domes. I can see I have much more to learn about making speakers. GOOD!!! The more I learn, the better I feel than ... well, I dont want to get in trouble. [​IMG]
    This is a very confusing debate. Hmmm....well, ok, I am still gonna want a ribbon and I still want 3-way or more. Now, waht do I put inbetween the ribbon and the woofer? The ribbon will not be crossed any lower than 2khz.
    Come on! Lets have fun with this!!!
     
  18. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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  19. Greg Monfort

    Greg Monfort Supporting Actor

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    Ooh! That's much better than any of the other Focal, etc., data I have. A little conical horn would further improve it overall.
    Thanks!
    GM
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    Loud is beautiful, if it's clean
     
  20. Scott Simonian

    Scott Simonian Screenwriter

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    Wow! Well, any speaker that I make from now on will have that tweeter. That is a identical 30 off-axis response!!!
    [​IMG]
    WOW!!!
    Hmmm.... ok, thats a start. Uh.....
     

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