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TV shows and TV movies gone W I D E

Discussion in 'TV on DVD and Blu-ray' started by UHDvision, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. MatthewA

    MatthewA Lead Actor

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    Someone had to point that out to them. Back in the day, while they were cropping widescreen movies for television, pre-widescreen movies got cropped to fit widescreen ratios for re-release. Disney did it all the time until Roger Ebert complained in his 1987 review of that year's reissue of 1950's Cinderella:

    Ebert also spoke out against Warner Home Video when Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory got an open-matte only DVD in 2001, marketed as a "30th Anniversary Edition" with extras.
     
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  2. bmasters9

    bmasters9 Producer

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    I guess you mean that what happened w/Lost in Space is older than time itself (figuratively speaking).
     
  3. Mark-P

    Mark-P Producer

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    Nobody said YOU zoom-boxed. It is the HD masters that are zoomed-in from the original negatives that pretty much all filmed TV product from that era is. The reason being that the large amount of safety margins all all four sides of the image should be cropped out as showing the entire image would not be desirable. You don't make a widescreen version of Mission Impossible by cropping the already cropped (or should we say properly framed?) 4X3 masters, you go back to the original elements and harvest more image from the sides so that the top and bottom cropping is minimal. This is exactly what they have done on countless shows like M*A*S*H, Hart to Hart, Charlies Angels, etc.
     
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  4. Harry-N

    Harry-N Producer

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    Hogwash.
     
  5. TravisR

    TravisR Studio Mogul

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    My apologies, I knew that you weren't advocating for altering the aspect ratio. I was just giving my thoughts about the topic. Sorry. :)
     
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  6. Mark-P

    Mark-P Producer

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  7. Harry-N

    Harry-N Producer

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    I have also given evidence of shows that have been remastered in widescreen and I'm really not all that keen about it. OAR is a perfectly respectable way of presenting any TV show on today's TVs. That being said, there's nothing I can do to stop the trend of them doing what they're doing.

    Personally, I'd rather have the top and bottom information preserved rather than chopped so we can see a tiny bit more irrelevant side information.

    But suppose the DP on MISSION; IMPOSSIBLE wasn't looking for a "Warner Bros. close-up" in that shot.

    I personally bought the LOST IN SPACE widescreen DVD set. It was cheap, and as an Irwin Allen fan, it seemed like the right thing to do. I already own the Blu-ray set, so this is just a curiosity in my collection. I really find that it brings me no great joy to watch. There isn't any relevant information at the sides, and the tops and bottoms are too cramped for my taste.

    When I watch the remastered M*A*S*H on TV, I get no great joy from it because I know the series so well, that I can just tell that it's all wrong. But I also know that I'm a voice crying in the wilderness and that the "wideys" will have their way. (God, now I sound like a racist!).

    I better head for the shower before I get into too much more trouble...
     
  8. Gary Seven

    Gary Seven Grand Poo Pah

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    Those screen caps show cropping on the tops and bottoms to achieve "wide screen" effect. I agree, with Harry.... unnecessary and altars OAR.
     
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  9. MatthewA

    MatthewA Lead Actor

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    Maybe someday they'll surprise us with 4x3 OAR Blu-rays that include the laugh track-free option.
     
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  10. UHDvision

    UHDvision Screenwriter

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    When I say obviously zoomboxed, it means the scan of the IMF show was made by zooming in inside the negative space, in effect cropping the picture on all four sides.

    They would have to, because if they scan the whole Oneg and frame it for 4/3, it look ridiculous.

    However, if you crop the top and bottom of the Oneg, it look shot for widescreen.

    TV aspect ratio is not and never was OAR. It was a cropped ratio.

    Current widescreen conversions, are mostly just cropped differently than originaly.
     
  11. Harry-N

    Harry-N Producer

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    Attempted justification.

    Wrong is wrong.
     
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  12. Message #512 of 516 Oct 8, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
    BobO'Link

    BobO'Link Producer

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    Everything I say here is for 35mm film production. Videotape production is different and has its own foibles, none of which are discussed.
    If the intended original aspect ratio (OAR) was kept - it might have been "zoomed." You'd need the original negative to know for sure. Due to the nature of TV transmission the frame had areas "protected" for dealing with overscan. That simply means the intended image is inside a smaller box on the 35mm frame as what was outside that frame might not be transmitted or received at home. If you go back to the original film you *will* see more image than was seen originally. While that section of the screen was where action took place the creators of TV product tended to keep the entire frame safe for transmission as some things were shown in theaters where you *would* see more of the image.
    No. It wouldn't. TV shows in those years were shot on 35mm film. The 4:3 (1.3:1) aspect ratio was chosen for TV because that's the original 35mm silent film ratio and could easily and satisfactorily show Academy ratio (1.375:1 - the standard for 35mm sound) movies. If you scan the full negative you simply get a bit more room all the way around with just a bit more on the sides than top/bottom. Shots may look a bit "loose" or open but it never significantly detracts from what was originally shot simply because the AR of the 35mm frame is very close to that of a TV transmission.
    It will *look* widescreen but will not necessarily look "shot for widescreen." That's all a matter of how the product was framed. They all did it a bit differently. Practically every 4:3 TV show I've ever seen converted to 16:9 is cropped far too tight on the top/bottom. If a TV show was shot *very* loose then it may look acceptable when cropped for 16:9. Very few shows were shot that loose for the duration of an episode. Loose shots are loose due to overall composition and/or the need to show more people/action on screen.
    TV aspect ratio is, and was for a very long time, 4:3 - aka 1.3:1 - aka OAR for TV. OAR means "Original Aspect Ratio." That doesn't mean the film ratio and has nothing to do with film ratio. Films shot 1.66, 2.2, or any other ratio - their OAR - are mostly shot on 35mm with anamorphic lenses to achieve that ratio. Their OAR is different than 35mm even though, like TV, that's what they were shot on.

    Yes, TV product is a "cropped" ratio from the original film stock. There are movies that were shot on standard 35mm with standard lenses but cropped to WS (various ratios) with mattes when projected. Their OAR is not 1.375:1, aka Academy Ratio, even though they can be displayed that way. Those films are considered to have been shot "open matte," meaning more was shot on the top/bottom what was never meant to be seen.
    The one fully accurate thing in your post. TV product originally shot for 4:3 projection *is* cropped differently for 16:9 display than was done originally.

    This image shows the various cropping done to achieve the various, projected, ratios for 33mm film:
    [​IMG]
    As you can see, cropping for 1.85 (16:9) crops more off the intended, original 4:3, image than 4:3 does from Academy Ratio. That little bit of difference between AR and 4:3 is all due to protecting for overscan. That extra bit of empty space to the left (part of "Full Aperture") is where the optical or magnetic sound track would appear and is not used for any image.
     
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  13. Harry-N

    Harry-N Producer

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    It has also been my experience that old television versions of these old shows did indeed crop stuff on all sides because they had to. TVs were designed to chop off part of the televised image anyway, so we wouldn't be seeing transmission oddities at the four edges of the screen. Anyone who ever messed with an old CRT television knows that if you starting changing height and width, you would be reducing overscan and see a bit more of the image - but it was at the risk of introducing unwanted artifacts.

    Screens of that era were a bit curvy in shape, with rounded corners and slightly rounded top, bottom and sides. Trinitrons from Sony moved the trend toward squarer screens, but even they had a bit of curvature to them.

    When we started getting flat screen televisions and I would view a DVD or Blu-ray, I would marvel at the fact that we were getting zero overscan and were seeing the whole picture, more info than was allotted for overscan, so one could say that we are already seeing more of the picture than was ever intended back in those old CRT days.

    On my 23" computer monitor, I just measured the MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE images that I posted on the prior page. They measure:

    width = 27.1 cm
    height = 20.4 cm

    That works out to a 1.3284313 ratio - very close to 1.33, and insignificantly smaller.

    Whenever I see a former 4:3 image cropped to fake 16:9, I feel cheated that I'm missing part of the picture. Since they tend to tilt the image up slightly from the center to correct for tight headroom, it gives me the feeling of watching the picture with a horizontal wall in my way, cutting off my vision of the bottom of the picture. Suddenly actresses don't have nice legs anymore. They're chopped off. Suddenly any details on the floor or a desk are gone. It's not right.

    The only solution to this will be the invention of a screen that auto-shapes so that the 'cryers' won't have to look at a black bar.
     
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  14. UHDvision

    UHDvision Screenwriter

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    Here I will try to post some screens as I come onto them:

    Hart to Hart (available in widescreen on Amazon video)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. UHDvision

    UHDvision Screenwriter

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    Wonder Woman. Complete season 1 in Widescreen on iTunes.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  16. bmasters9

    bmasters9 Producer

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    Second-season episode "Operation Murder" (OAD Tuesday, May 12, 1981 on ABC)?
     

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