Turntables and vinyl...I'm getting started and need some help! (1 Viewer)

[KeithH]

Saurav, thanks for the info.

You said:

he didn't think my P3 was better than the MMF-5 (he didn't sell Rega). The guy certainly knew his stuff though, so I wouldn't put him down as only pushing what he sold.

I'm sure the dealer is reputable, but he could have an agenda. I see it all the time with dealers. Salesmen at a well-known high-end dealer in my area always bash brands they don't carry, including Denon, Mark Levinson, and Krell.

 

[Philip Hamm]

I think the "feature" that I want is the best sounding table under $500 initially.

I don't think you're going to significantly better that vintage Technics 1300 for $500. Personally, I kind of agree with Mike Knapp as far as the very high quality of big Technics DD turntables. Many hi-fi enthusiasts turn their nose up at them, but not all, some give them a great deal of respect. The new ones are specifically DJ oriented, yours is hi-fi oriented.
As far as cartriges is concerned, I'll say again, my local dealer is convinced that the table is more important than the cart in the overall sound. I have no reason to disagree. If you really want to get a new cart, stop by your local Radio Shack (no kidding), they sell some Audio Technica carts, which are pretty nice. I put an AT cart on my Denon 7F a couple months ago and it sounds frickin' awesome. If you get a cart from a DJ supplier, make sure you make it clear that you're using your TT for hi-fi use, not DJ use, and you want a cart for that purpose. It is possible (though I don't know) that DJ carts may not sound as good.
One more thing, your table predates the P-Mount system, so you'll have to very carefull align the cart. Be very careful here, as a misaligned cart can really have a very bad impact on your sound. The inventive P-Mount system eliminates all these problems, but is usually only found on cheap tables.
Lastly, reference records.... My best sounding record is my Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs "Original Master Recording" of Pink Floyd's "Dark Side Of The Moon". The Columbia LP of "The Final Cut" is tremendous, too. I don't have a test record. If you like The Beatles, there are still some of the recent vinyl re-releases in circulation at places like www.amazon.com and www.cdnow.com - they are worth pursuing. I have the recently repressed "Rubber Soul" and "Abbey Road" records and they sound tremendous. Though "Abbey Road" has a very high noise floor due to the long running time.

 

[Saurav]

As far as cartriges is concerned, I'll say again, my local dealer is convinced that the table is more important than the cart in the overall sound.

I agree with this, but I wouldn't put a $20 cartridge on a $500 turntable. I've owned one of the less expensive Audio Technica carts. They're pretty good, but the Grado Black at $40 is in a different league, and my current Dynavector 10x4 at $325 is in a different league again. Of course, those are my component choices, I'm not suggesting that anyone else should follow the same budget allocation. My personal favorite for budget carts (out of the few that I've heard) is easily the Grado Black.
Phil, if you don't mind my asking - how many other cartridges have you heard on your Denon, or elsewhere?

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Thanks Philip and Saurav.
I'm feeling better and better about the 1300. Last night, I had an opportunity to listen a bit more. There are some albums with more of the feedback problem than others. Tonight, I will work on some isolation tweaks.
Philip,
Floyd is my favorite band. I have most of their albums, including all of the older stuff except "Wish you were here" (my favorite. I'm not sure that these are the "original masters" or any kind of special pressing, but I will check to make sure. I am also very fond of the Beatles and have many of their albums. Most of these, though, I have not had the guts to listen to yet. I'm still testing the stylus and will go through my calibration disk tonight for those purposes. I don't want to mess up any of my vinyl because the needle is bad. I also brought the unused stylus to work with me today. I will research it online, it's still in my truck...but I'll grab it in a bit and let you know the model #.
Saurav and Philip,
There is a thread on AA that discusses the Grado Black as being possibly the "best cartridge under $50, ever!" If I find another cartridge necessary, I will buy one of these. You can also find Grado Blue for about $50 at ebay. However, if I can count on my SL-1300 being a pretty decent table...I have no problem dropping a couple hundred on a nice stylus/cartridge package, if improvement is possible and record wear is diminished. One thing about the 1300 is that the cords are not removable. Is this commonplace for turntables? The interconnects, ground, and power are fixed to the table. It's always nice to know that you can improve on your interconnects and power.
Another question...Is the tonearm anything I will have to worry about? Do they stay in good condition for all of these years? It seems my arm holder is running out of juice. When I flip the lever to lift the arm, it comes up, but than it gradually falls down. I wish I could find someone locally that could tune this thing up. I am going to look and call around a bit more today.
Jeremy

 

[Philip Hamm]

Another question...Is the tonearm anything I will have to worry about? Do they stay in good condition for all of these years? It seems my arm holder is running out of juice. When I flip the lever to lift the arm, it comes up, but than it gradually falls down. I wish I could find someone locally that could tune this thing up. I am going to look and call around a bit more today.

I wouldn't worry about that. These days any serious turntable is fully manual anyway, you'll have to lift the arm up and put it over the record yourself. I'm not sure about what kind of tune-up work that can be done to older TTs and what's needed. One thing's for sure, the long term maintenance on Direct Drive TTs is lower than belt, if just for the lack of belt replacement.

 

[Saurav]

If you can, take it to a shop and have them give it a once-over. A DJ shop should know how to service a Technics turntable. If you don't know the history of the table, all lubrication should be checked, bearings should be checked for damage, and so on. This does include the tonearm.

One thing about the 1300 is that the cords are not removable. Is this commonplace for turntables?

Yes. Some people modify turntables and put in RCA connectors. I'm not sure about this... on one hand, a better cord with better shielding would help, since a cartridge's output is about 1000 times less than a CD player's. At the same time, adding extra connections can't be good for such a weak signal either. So... it's a bit of a toss-up.

 

[Frank_S]

Jeremy, great to hear your enthusiasm toward vinyl.
To get the most out of your TT/cart. make sure the geometry is as close to spot on as possible, IE cart. overhang, VTF, and VTA. Purchase the HI-FI test LP and run all the Bias tracks to ensure proper tracking. When everything is setup properly on a level platter, you're finished. Go and enjoy all your records.
I would recommend the Disc Doctor cleaning pads and solution. I have'nt found anything that compares with them.
Check out the AA board and you'll see what I mean.
Personally, I would take a Rega P3 over any technics deck, just my opinion.

As far as cartriges is concerned, I'll say again, my local dealer is convinced that the table is more important than the cart in the overall sound.

I would say both are very important, however, putting a $40 cart. on a $3k TT is'nt going to get the most out of your TT. I've gone the opposite route, I have Koetsu cart. on my P3 and it sounds incredible. My advice would be to purchase a decent TT and cart(P3 with Dyna 10x4 per Saurav)and upgrade your phono section after that.
Enjoy vinyl, more and more people are moving to the dark side.
BTW, If you really want to hear how good Zeppelin can sound on vinyl, pick up their re-issues on Classic Records. They are $25 each but they sound excellent, my fav is Led Zep III, blows any Zep CD away. Good luck!
Also, Happy Birthday Saurav!!

 

[Saurav]

Thanks! I wasn't expecting anyone on this forum to wish me
Phil,
Thanks, that helps me form a better perspective for where you're coming from.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Happy Birthday Saurav...
Thanks Frank. I'll be sure to check into those Zep albums.
What is you guys' favorite site to buy vinyl? Is it wise to buy used albums, or is it smarter to buy new. I'm looking for new and used sites, let me know your favorites.
Jeremy

 

[Frank_S]

Jeremy, here are a few.
www.redtrumpet.com
www.lpnow.com
www.amusicdirect.com
www.diversevinyl.com
www.elusivedisc.com
www.acousticsounds.com
Also, check out garage sales, Salvation Army, and Goodwill outlets for used LP's. If you buy used albums, check them out for scratches by rolling the LP from side to side in good lighting, you'll be able to tell if the record is worth buying. Part of the fun in vinyl is finding that hidden treasure!. Good luck!

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

"Part of the fun in vinyl is finding that hidden treasure!"
You are soooooo right. I think this deal I found last week was one hell of a treasure chest. However, since then, I've found several "closet LP" enthusiasts
They are everywhere! And many more willing to dish me off their old albums for 50 cents a pop! That's incredible IMO. I may be paying too much for some, but that needle in the haystack makes it all worthwhile.
Fellas,
Here is the info on my cartridge on the 1300.
The cartridge is a Shure V-15 III-GZ
The stylus on the cartridge right now is a Shure, however, I don't have its box.
The unused stylus still in the box is a Shure VN-35E Super Track Plus Stereo Dynetic Stylus.
I am heading over to the Shure site right now to check it out. Also, I found a fella here in town that can do all of the calibration and a once-over of the turntable. He says the 1300 is a fine turntable and an easy one to check out.
I will be heading to his shop on Monday morning.
Jeremy

 

[Saurav]

I think the Shure V-15 series were all outstanding cartridges. Check AA to find out what replacement stylus works for it, I guess the VN-35E should be the one since you have one. www.jandr.com sells some Shure stuff, and you should be able to find spare stylii online, unless the cartridge is too old and out of production. Try Link Removed
I would think that your Shure could easily be better than the Grado Black. The current V15 (V15VxMR) sells for around $225. I thought about getting that for a long time, but ultimately got a great deal on my Dynavector.
Given your current TT and cart, I think your best bet is to put some money into bringing everything up to spec. Later on, when you want to upgrade, upgrade everything. And like Frank said, cartridge setup and record cleaning are really important. I can second the Disc Doctor that he mentioned - it's probably the best non-vacuum product available, and it might be better than some of the vacuum ones too.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Thanks Saurav.

At the needledoctor, they want $350 for the V-15 cartridges! They are different model numbers, but they are definitely under the HiFi/Audiophile carts, not the versatile/DJ carts.

Monday morning, I will have the gentleman check out my table and see if there's anything that needs to be done.


Jeremy

 

[Saurav]

Hmm... guess the price has gone up then. I looked into this around a year ago, I think.

Also, I found a fella here in town that can do all of the calibration and a once-over of the turntable.

If he doesn't mind, sit down with him, carefully watch what he does, and ask lots of questions
Edit: If he has the tools (microscope/hand lens) and the knowledge, he should be able to look at your current stylus and tell you if it has usable life left, or you need a new one. If you can, get him to check out the spare in-the-box stylus too. You really don't want to be putting a stylus of unknown history on a record for too long.
Other than that, I think you're pretty much all set.

 

[John Tompkins]

Let me start by saying I know nothing about tt's and this thread has peaked my curiosity. How important is the phono stage as far as sound goes ? I have seen them for next to nothing and have also seen expensive ones (seems to me that it isnt doing too much anyhow).

How does this combo sound, sumiko 1.2 tt, grado red stylus, and a cheap phono ? along with cheap disc cleaning aid. About 500.00 total new ?

 

[Saurav]

How important is the phono stage as far as sound goes ? I have seen them for next to nothing and have also seen expensive ones (seems to me that it isnt doing too much anyhow).

Phono stages do two things. First, they apply an equalization curve to the signal coming out from the cartridge. This is because records are cut with a special EQ curve to allow the information to be put on the grooves more easily, and this EQ needs to be "undone" or "reversed" for it to sound right.

Next, phono stages amplify the signal to a level where a normal preamp can handle it. A CD player's output is around 2V, a cartridge's output is around 2mV. So, a phono stage amplifies the signal around 1000 times before it is fed to the rest of the system. Consequently, it is much more important that the phono stage be quite and noise-free, because any noise is also going to get amplified 1000 times. A couple of millivolts noise in a preamp is insignificant, the same noise in a phono stage would completely drown out the music.

There are decent phono stages to be had for not too much money. One of the best budget options is a $25 battery powered (so no 60Hz hum at all) unit made by Radio Shack, there's a lot of discussion on Audio Asylum about this unit under "Little Rat". Nad and Rotel both make decent units in the $100 - $150 range. Creek has some a little above that, and you probably aren't interested in $300 and above phono stages.

AFAIK the Sumiko's are supposed to be pretty good TTs. I haven't heard any, so I can't comment.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Actually, Saurav...I exaggerated a bit.
The V15 Type VXMr cart is $325. That's as much as a table!
Remember, mine is 20-25 years old, so I'm sure there are differences I will ask every question I can think of on Monday morning. He owns a nice shop in town, deals Snell, Pioneer (Elite), B&K, and Macintosh. We've been friends for years and I just called him on a wim. He says he's the only DUDE in town for vinyl, so that's cool.
I'll keep you up to date.
Jeremy

 

[Saurav]

Cool, for me learning new stuff is the most fun part of this hobby.

The V15 Type VXMr cart is $325. That's as much as a table!

Ask Frank how much the Koetsu cart that he's using on a Rega P3 cost

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

O.K.
Frank, How much was your cartridge?
I've got my trusty "Stereophile" in front of me. There's a Clearaudio Insider Gold Cart for $7600 and a Koetsu Urushi for about $4 g's!
This analog thing looks like it can get completely out of control I like that.
Jeremy

 

[Saurav]

I've heard a Koetsu Urushi on a Teres - that's a $1.5K - $2K DIY turntable, which probably sounds as good as some 5-figure TTs. My system sounded so pathetically inadequate after that experience The speakers were 108dB sensitive horns, about 5 feet tall, and the amps were 0.5W DIY tube affairs... that's right, all of half a watt.