Turntables and vinyl...I'm getting started and need some help! (1 Viewer)

[Jack Briggs]

I prefer the belt-drive units of yore--

I owned at various times the Thorens TD-125MkII (mated with a number of arms--SME 3009, Infinity Black Widow, etc.); the overrated but good Linn/Sondek LP12 (mated with a Linn Itokk tonearm); and the SOTA Sapphire (mated with the same Linn Itokk).

Loved moving-coil cartridges as a rule--but kept going back to Joe Grado's lovely moving-magnet pickups.

To this day, the best two-channel home audio I've ever heard in the home came from well-produced and -engineered vinyl recordings (usually of the direct-to-disc variety, and I loved half-speed-mastered LPs).

 

[Mike Knapp]

I picked up this Technics 1200mkII on Sunday. I have had many turntables, this one is rock soild and sounds fantastic. I am looking at a Rega Planar2 but if the deal falls through I will be content with this table. It has many "features" most of which are not needed.
As for the DD versus Belt....well, i've had both and believe it or not, I prefer the DD. On this Tecnics table there is no rumble factor. Imagine a tank with a tonearm. What is going to rumble it?
Some reference vinyl platters to try to get a hold of are
Most any 1/2 speed mastered LP's. It will say 1/2 speed on a banner across the top usually.
Almost any Steely Dan record
Either Donald Fagan album
Willy Nelson's Stardust
Almost any Dire Straits album
Most by The Police
Miles Davis LPs
B52's Cosmic Thing
These will give you a dose of what vinyl can do.
I am using the Bottlehead Foreply pre-amp, 2 Antique Audio AV8 amps and Adire Kosala speakers. My vinyl rigs sounds as good as, or better than any SACD I have in my collection.
I plan on converting several "digital heads" at a small meet next month.
Mike

 

[Alex Prosak]

Jeremy,
My brother-in-law still has the LPs, I'll be picking them up on Saturday. You can have your pick of what you want or all of them for that matter. Drop me a line and we can arrange the pick up. Maybe the next time Leah hears your system she'll let me go hog wild.
I also second getting a decent, but affordable vacuum cleaning system from Nitty Gritty or VPI. I have never been to satisfied with the Discwasher D4. Consider getting a Geodisc to help with aligning the turntable, unless you can find someone around here that is familiar with doing it.
I did a little bit of checking on Audioshopper and Audiogon and on each site I saw Rega P3's for $399, with the RB600 tonearm.
Alex

 

[Saurav]

Imagine a tank with a tonearm. What is going to rumble it?

The tank itself. A tank with a tonearm isn't immune to internally generated vibrations, especially if they have nowhere else to go.

Edit: Actually, that's not an entirely accurate statement. Some turntables do go down the 'tank' route, with massive platters which simply absorb any vibrations coming into them, so that very little makes its way to the cartridge. Other 'tables use a different approach, directing vibrations away from the platter and/or preventing them from reaching the platter.

 

[PomingF]

I second Mike on the Technics. My first TT was the earlier 1200 which was subsequently sold to a friend after he dropped the thing from the seat to the floor of his truck while borrowing it. That was over 20 yrs ago and last I saw him few years back he still had it with him. After giving up the Technics I bought a Dual which I still have running these days. My other TT with the separate rig is a Rega Planar 25 which is definitely good enough to me. The last issue I think, of Stereophile Mike Fremmer has a detail article on TT setup.

Audioadvisor has a Cardas calibration LP plus other gadgets. I also bought their RecordDoctor manual cleaning machine and have been very happy with it.

PF

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Thanks Fellas.
Saurav, I will do some experimenting tonight with vibrations. It was ONLY the Zepplin LP that I listened to last night, so it may have had something to do with the quality of the album. I'm not sure the name of the calibration LP. I will let you know tonight after work.
Alex, That is GREAT news! I'm very excited to add to the collection. It is starting to sound pretty good in that little room in South Anchorage It sounds like Leah was pretty intrigued with just the CD playback (of your Rega) last time around...just that there were some decisions to be made, vacation or sound Let me get this thing set up correctly and we'll ask HER to make the decision!
Joe, Will I be able to use a Grado cartridge/stylus on my Technics? Or do I have to stick with Shure? From what I've read at Audio Asylum, many people appreciate the Grado Black/Blue/Gold cartridges.
Mike, Thanks for chiming in. Sounds like a smoking set-up for analog. My 1300 is built like a tank as well. My wife even remarked about the difference in build between yesteryear and today. 30lb. turntables were pretty common it seems back then....about as common as a 3lb. DVD/CD player today I've heard alot about the 1200MKII as well, but I have another option if I decide to go with DD. My local Denon dealer has the 47-F, a throwback DD table that he will sell me at his cost, $350. It will be a toss-up between the two but if I end up investing this kind of coin, I will probably at least take a look at Rega and MusicHall. I'm intrigued by the "ease of use" of the DD tables, though.
Jeremy

 

[Saurav]

I've used a Grado Black on a Pioneer, and then on my current Rega P3. It's an excellent cartridge for the money (I paid $40 for it). You should be able to use it on your table with no problems. Since you have the owner's manual, just check and see if you need a standard mount or P-mount cartridge, and then make sure you order the right kind, whatever you decide to buy.

Shure makes great cartridges too, but maybe some of their line is more geared towards DJ use (ruggedness, ability to put up with back-cueing, etc.) than audio use (finesse, ability to extract detail, etc.). I don't know what's on your 'table. If you can get a model #, look it up online.

The Denon DP-47F gets good reviews everywhere too. If you're going up into that price range, I would really suggest you audition a Rega or an MMF (my preference would be Rega, since I own one). I bought my P3 for around $300 on eBay, 2 months old.

I'm not sure why DD tables are more easy-to-use than belt drive. I don't think replacement belts are hard to get, especially for modern 'tables like Regas. Other convenience features like auto lift/power-off etc. are a different matter - most 'audiophile' tables don't have any of those, because the extra mechanical parts needed usually negatively impact the sound. Some 'tables have auto lift mechanisms which don't touch the tonearm till the end of play, those wouldn't have a sonic impact. As far as DD vs. belt-drive goes, IMO both technologies have their pluses and minuses. As you start getting into the better quality 'tables, most of the ones I've seen are belt drive. However, that doesn't mean that every belt drive 'table will be better than every DD.

Cartridge setup is extremely important, so make sure you get a decent protractor (alignment device, helps you set how forward/back the cartridge should sit, and the amount of rotation in the headshell). A test record is good for setting other parameters. Go through the vinyl-related FAQ at Audio Asylum, 'table setup is covered fairly well in more than one article.

 

[KeithH]

Mike, I am very interested in the results of a Technics vs. Rega shoot-out. If you do it, please give us a report.

 

[KeithH]

PomingF said:

John, you go from TT to phono stage to preamp to amp for you still want to be able to adjust playback volume.

Of course, some power amps have variable inputs in addition to fixed inputs. My NAD C 270 power amp has variable inputs. I wonder how vinyl would sound if I were to route my NAD PP-1 phono pre-amp into the variable inputs on my power amp. For that matter, I've thought about trying CD players that way. I have the power amp biamped with an NAD C 370 integrated amp, so of course, I would have to give up biamping to try a front-end component with the power amp. I would end up giving up something (biamping) to gain something (bypassing the pre-amp), so I wonder whether I would win or lose in the end. Hmmm....

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

I would like to second what Keith said.

Sure wish I could join you for the "conversions" this weekend, Mike. You guys all need to come fishing in Alaska, come hang with Alex and I.


Saurav,

Thanks. I will check out my owners manual tonight and figure out everything. I just bought the D4 cleaning kit, and locally, only DJ cartridges/styli are available. I'm going to follow Phillip's recommendation from earlier and try the "new" cartridge before buying a new one. I am into the "best" sound possible from my turntable if I decide to make that investment. The problem is, here in Alaska, we have NOTHING as far as turntable sales. No Rega, MusicHall, VPI, etc. There will not be anywhere for me to audition. I am, however, visiting Seattle this fall for a Seahawks game. Maybe I can find a turntable dealer or two in the Emerald City...anybody?


Jeremy

 

[Saurav]

Well, I've bought 90% of my audio setup online, so obviously with very little auditioning. IMO the Grado Black is a safe bet at $40 - you can get it at several online dealers for that price. If I had to venture a guess, I would think that it would be better than comparably priced DJ cartridges. And $40 isn't that much to experiment with. The only issue with Grado cartridges is that they sometimes hum on certain 'tables, notably some Regas. I never noticed any hum on mine that was loud enough to be noticable.

The Discwasher D4 kit is a good place to start, that was my first cleaning solution too. I'm using a Disc Doctor now, still haven't invested in a vacuum cleaning machine.

 

[KeithH]

Jeremy, the US distributor for Rega products is Lauerman Audio Import. You can shoot them an e-mail at [email protected] or call them at 1-865-521-6464 to look for a dealer or dealers in the Seattle area. I got the contact information from www.rega.co.uk .
From musichallaudio.com there are two dealers in Seattle:
AUDIO CONNECTION SEATTLE
5621A UNIVERSITY WAY N.E.
SEATTLE, WA 98105
1-206-524-7251
HAWTHORNE STEREO
6303 ROOSEVELT WAY N.E.
SEATTLE, WA 98115
1-206-522-9609
Regarding VPI, I could not find a dealer list on www.vpiindustries.com . However, you can contact them by e-mail at [email protected] or by phone at 1-732-946-8606.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

How important do you guys think it is to audition turntables? Is it nearly as important as our speakers, amplifiers, and pre/pros? My thought would be that it is important to determine what kind, DD or belt, but after that, the different price ranges have pretty distinct offerings.

Is the difference between Music Hall and Rega the same difference as Ford and Chevy, or are we talking about completely different feature sets, ease of use, and the ability to integrate different components with each?


Jeremy

 

[Saurav]

Is the difference between Music Hall and Rega the same difference as Ford and Chevy, or are we talking about completely different feature sets, ease of use, and the ability to integrate different components with each?

Based purely on hearsay, I think the Regas are better 'tables. If you're buying new, you get more for your money with a Music Hall - a cartridge is included, and a record clamp with some of the models. I think ease/difficulty of setup/use is about the same for both.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Thanks Saurav,

"I don't know if DD/belt is the fundamental defining characteristic of a turntable."

I agree. My point was that once you figured out which type you prefer...you look from there in your budget. IE, if I end up going with a belt drive table at a budget of $500, Rega's P3 (used) or the Music Hall MMF-5 would be my choices. On the other hand, if I went with DD @$500, my choices would be Technics 1200MKII or the Denon 47F. Sure there are other choices, but these are the most obvious, after choosing whether or not to go DD or belt.


Jeremy

 

[Saurav]

If I were you, I'd set a budget, then pick a TT based on the kind of sound/presentation/features I wanted, and then go with whatever it turned out to be, DD or belt. I think I see where you're coming from though, and that makes sense too.

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

I think the "feature" that I want is the best sounding table under $500 initially.
I am going to try the new stylus on my Technics right now. Also, I will dink around with isolation of the deck and see how much performance I can squeeze from it in it's current condition.
From there, I will anxiously await Mr. Knapp's showdown results between DD and belt
Thanks for all your help.
Jeremy

 

[Saurav]

I am going to try the new stylus on my Technics right now. Also, I will dink around with isolation of the deck and see how much performance I can squeeze from it in it's current condition.

You should be able to do quite a bit there. There are some free downloadable alignment protractors available online, so you can get one of those, print it out, and set up your cartridge with that. It won't be the most accurate, but it'll be much better than nothing, and will vastly improve your sound over a poorly setup cartridge, and prevent undue wear & tear on your records. Search AA for "free protractor" or something, there's more than one available.
Other things you can try - definitely level the platter, with a bubble/spirit level if possible. Check the tracking weight, make sure it's near the upper range of what's recommended for your cartridge, but not higher. If you want, clean/lubricate the bearings. I wouldn't do that unless you know what you're doing - you don't want to get dust/lint in there, and you'll need to know what kind of lubricant to use.
And above all, have fun

 

[KeithH]

Saurav, out of curiosity, do you have any experience with Music Hall turntables, and if so, what is your opinion of them? I'm thinking about getting the MMF-5 at some point.

 

[Saurav]

I heard one of them, I think it was the MMF-5, at a dealer. Had the stock Goldring cart on it. It was playing through the Creek phono stage, I think a Musical Fidelity or Rogue linestage, deHavilland 25W SET monoblocks (these were HUGE), and Meadowlark speakers (floorstanders, don't know which ones). The setup sounded awesome, I'd rate it as the 2nd best I've ever heard. Of course, I wasn't familiar with any of the equipment. The dealer thought my 10x4 was better than the Goldring (he sold both), and he didn't think my P3 was better than the MMF-5 (he didn't sell Rega). The guy certainly knew his stuff though, so I wouldn't put him down as only pushing what he sold.

So... very limited experience, and my opinions are mostly based on AA posts.