Tube Vs. Solid State (1 Viewer)

[Saurav]

See above to look at more realistic results.

Even using your example of 3% 2nd order and 0.3% 3rd order, the numbers come out in favor of 2nd order distortion. Not when you compare them directly (which is what a measuring instrument would do), but when you account for the fact that we find odd order harmonics more annoying than even order harmonics. For instance, using the same example of 0.7% 3rd order distortion being more annoying than 10% 2nd order distortion (assuming for a moment that this is correct), the numbers still seem to indicate that the 0.3% THD would be more objectionable.
Anyway... like I said before, I think this has been thrashed out enough. And Larry's right, all of this doesn't mean anything, because everyone will listen to what they prefer. Also, THD isn't the only difference between tubes and SS, there's a lot more than that going on, and with certain kinds of speakers, SS amps do many things better than equivalently priced tube amps.

 

[Larry B]

And Larry's right

Using as dogma that even a broken clock is right twice a day, I figured that if I posted enought times, sooner or later I'd hit on something mildy meaningful. Seems to have worked.


Larry

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I've been hearing a lot of great things about OTL amps lately and from what I gather, Tenor is perhaps the best of all of them. I was tempted to buy an OTL amp (Atma-Sphere, to be exact) but I was hesitant due to their not working well in all systems (impedance matching problems, etc.).

Larry,
I think they only work well with sensitive speakers, but they sound fabulous. OTLs are getting better and are much more reliable than prior amps of this type were.
Try one out and let me know what you think? Will you dealer let you borrow the amp for 1-2 day evaluation?
John,
Honestly, I think this talk about harmonics is very illuminating but also a form of audio/science masturbation if not coupled with subjective listening sessions. At the end of the day it is based on what one hears and whether one is emotionally moved by the sound than just a bunch of incomplete and partially inaccurate measurments.
The ultimate test is to:
1. Take take too leading amps - one solid state, one tube and set them in a system.
2. Have a live musician play a guitar or something.
3. Record the live musician in high rez format, say DSD
4. Play back the recording of the musician over each amp randomly and ask participant to decide what amp sounded closest to the real musician.
Note: modern recording technology gets noticably close with the right mikes and recording gear these days.
We have done similar things in the studio to test microphone cables. And Mark Levinson does the same thing at Red Rose from time to time in Super Audio for playback over the reference system.

 

[Saurav]

BTW John, I think you got one of your numbers wrong:

To clarify, let's look at the numbers with 3%THD, assuming no overtones past 4th, and all 2nd order distortion:
Product.......Alone.....with THD
fundamental...N/A.......N/A
2nd overtone..390%......402%

3% 2nd order THD will add 3% of 100 to the 2nd overtone, not 3% of 390, since 2nd order THD adds on to the next octave of whatever it's working on, not to itself. You seem to have calculated 3% of 390 and added it to 390. So that should be 393, not 402.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken. The rest of the numbers look correct.

 

[Larry B]

Lee:

Will you dealer let you borrow the amp for 1-2 day evaluation?

I know a dealer who might but I think the VAC Renaissance 70/70 (previously owned) I am awating delivery on should satisfy my amplifier needs for a while.
Larry
P.S. New tube preamp arrives this week too.

 

[Larry B]

Saurav said

So that should be 393, not 402.

Well, that changes my entire outlook on this topic.

 

[Saurav]

LOL!!!! I apologize, but I'm an engineer by training and profession, so I can't help it
I know, this is getting petty.

 

[Larry B]

LOL!!!! I apologize, but I'm an engineer by training and profession, so I can't help it

Actually, I too am a stickler detail and often find errors in text books and papers (my teachers just love me). As such, I applaud your diligence. And while it may be a tad silly, at lest it keeps us on our toes and out of trouble.
LB
P.S. You received my E-mail?

 

[Saurav]

Yup, I did receive your email.

Using as dogma that even a broken clock is right twice a day, I figured that if I posted enought times, sooner or later I'd hit on something mildy meaningful. Seems to have worked.

It's called the Law of Conservation of Wisdom (yes, capitalization and all):

Spread it out thin enough, and some of it will stick.

In some cultures, the Law is worded a little differently:

BS begets BS.

Or something like that... have to run for a meeting now, talk to you later.

 

[Larry B]

Saurav:

LOL on all the above!

 

[John Kotches]

Saurav,
Note: Edit.
You're right, my mistake. I am now correcting the table.
I don't agree with you that "more is better" in this case.
This explains your preference for tubes and mine for SS
Regards,

 

[Yogi]

I am attempting to strike a middleground on all this. I am planning on hooking up a tube preamp (Rogue 66 or the CJ PV14 used) for some of that tube's magical high and midrange, to my Proceed amp for its powerfull lower octaves. Becos' frankly I am not ready to give up the power of bass in any presentation be it musical or cinematic and I have yet to hear a tube amp that can produce the death grip on woofers that a Proceed can. I believe each design has its own strengths and pitfalls and that none is a 'cure-all' to any audiophilic ailment and I further believe they both can coexist and complement each other in a single system
Peace, and keep it rolling.

 

[Larry B]

Following up on Rich. H's superb post earlier in this thread, I will add that I have yet to hear a SS amp that makes the human voice as real sounding as do good tubes amps. At the risk of opening up a can of worms, I will add that a similar situation exists for vinyl vs. digital. Digital supporters can argue 'til their blue in the face about digital's superior specs, yet there is no way in hell CDs can reproduce the human voice with greater realism than can vinyl.

Larry

 

[Yogi]

Agreed Larry human voices sound natural with tubes. What part of the freq spectrum do human voices come in? I would think midrange to upper midrange, right? Then there would be no doubt that tubes excel in that area. SS is good for fast transients like machine gun fire and quick explosions; anything that requires a huge amount of current quickly is where SS excels and for a convincing muscial or cinematic experience you need both; naturalness and speed.

I couldn't talk about vinyl as I have no experience with it. The only vinyl and vinyl player I remember was the one my Grandfather had which had a huge horn mounted on top of the arm and that my Grandpa had to wind before playing. I am not even sure of what kind of amplification it used but it sure did sound good to my ears back then (when I was maybe 7-8 yrs old).

Just curious how does SACD compare to Vinyl?

 

[John Kotches]

Yogi,

I ran with a tube preamp to SS amp for a number of years in my "stereo youth", then for about a year in the HT environment I used a different tube amp getting fed from the preamp/processor output.

I was generally pleased with the results, although my current analog preamp (EMM Labs Switchman-II) gives me the best results I've had in my system to date.

Regards,

 

[Larry B]

Yogi:

Just curious how does SACD compare to Vinyl?

SACD is certainly closer to vinyl than is CD, but it's still a reasonable distance away, IMO. Sad, but true.

Larry

 

[Saurav]

anything that requires a huge amount of current quickly is where SS excels

You hit the nail on the head there. A speaker that requires an SS amp's talents in order to play music well will always sound slow and plodding and mushy with a tube amp. However, to me that's not the fault of the amp or the speaker, it's more the fault of the person who put those two components together and expected them to work. You wouldn't put a high power class B SS amp with a super-efficient speaker either, because that amp will sound pretty bad with that speaker.

 

[Larry B]

Saurav:

You wouldn't put a high power class B SS amp with a super-efficient speaker either, because that amp will sound pretty bad with that speaker.

Why is that?

 

[Yogi]

You wouldn't put a high power class B SS amp with a super-efficient speaker either, because that amp will sound pretty bad with that speaker

Just curious Saurav, why did you use a Class B amp in the example? why not a high powered Class A SS amp with efficient speakers so you dont hear CO distortion?

And then why would this Class A amp sound bad with high efficiency speakers? If you say, because the high efficiency speaker has a horn loaded tweeter and would sound bright with the SS amp. I would say its the fault of the speaker and not the amp. So a high efficiency horn driver would sound better with a tube amp because of its rolled high end characterisitics. So it all boils down to component/speaker/room matching and one type of design is no better/worse than the other. Right?

 

[mike_decock]

SS is good for fast transients like machine gun fire and quick explosions

I can't think of any of my music that contains these... Maybe cannons in the 1812 Overture but it's not in my collection.

Anyway, let me try a strange approach here that kind of incorporates the Tubes vs. SS and the Vinyl vs CD debate.

I just read an article in Listener than touched on these ideas:

We are analog creatures. Anything of an on/off or switching nature is discomforting to the human creature. Think of a loud unexpected sound, or a bright flashing light. Your body reacts by assuming a defensive position, protecting yourself from something that is a potential threat.

Now, we know that digital stores data by chopping a continuous waveform into on/off bit of information. Even though it carefully tries to reconstruct the waveform, we still, somehow, consciously or not, perceive this discomforting element and we can't fully give ourselves over to the musical experience. We are, emotionally, at some level, threatened or discomforted by it.

Solid State also lends itself towards this fast, discomforting nature.

That said, perhaps if you like action movies and you want to feel the discomfort, you will find that solid state/digital is going to give you that "in the action" feel.

On the other hand, if you want to listen to some beautiful music and make an emotional connection to the artist(s) creating the music, tubes and vinyl are going to get you much closer.

Personally, I don't know if I fully buy into that whole concept but it is an interesting perspective and it does fit in with my observations.


-Mike...