Toy Story 2 and those pesky Black Bars!!!

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Brad_W, Nov 17, 2001.

  1. Brad_W

    Brad_W Screenwriter

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    Okay, my wife and I were about to watch Toy Story 2 last night and there is a feature where you can pick either widescreen or "full frame." Here's my problem:
    There is an image from the movie in widescreen above the choice for widescreen and that same image is in "full frame" above the choice for "full frame."
    The "widescreen" image they show is actually cropped off at the sides and top and bottom. While the "full frame" image showed every MORE than the widescreen.
    The ratio for this movie is as follows:
    widescreen: 1.77:1
    full frame: 1.33:1
    So, is the actual movie cropped or is this a bad sample for the selections. The whole reason for my concern is that:
    a) if this sample is the way this film is represented, then they F'd up and to see the whole movie, I would have to watch in... dare I say, full screen.
    b) if John Q. Sixpack sees this, then he/she will think that full screen is better.
    another question: am I over-reacting?
    And before everyone starts crying at me about OAR, both my wife and I choose only the original aspect ratio.
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  2. Rob Lutter

    Rob Lutter Producer

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    Toy Story 2's OAR is 1.77:1
    The Full Screen Version is 'MAR'ed... you see parts of the picture that you aren't meant to see...
    ...the widescreen version is the correct version, as you would see it on the big screen.
    EDIT: Toy Story 2 may be recomposed like 'A Bug's Life'... I am not sure as 'The Ultimate Toy Box' version does not contain the full screen version.
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    [Edited last by RobLutter on November 17, 2001 at 10:15 AM]
     
  3. Brad_W

    Brad_W Screenwriter

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    Rob, I know that it's OAR is 1.77:1 (see original post), but the sample image they show on the disc is actually cropped. I am wondering if it is cropped during the actual movie. If it is MARd then how come they show more on the fullscreen sample then the widescreen sample?
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    [Edited last by Brad_W on November 17, 2001 at 10:21 AM]
     
  4. Brad_W

    Brad_W Screenwriter

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  5. Jeff Kleist

    Jeff Kleist Executive Producer

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    Toy Story 2 was indeed recomposed, and either aspect ratio is technically valid. Though we all know widescreen is the only way to go
    Jeff Kleist
     
  6. Barry S

    Barry S Stunt Coordinator

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    The "samples" that they show for the AR selection are not always accurate representations of the screen dimensions. On some DVDs I've seen, the sample picture is exactly the same for both widescreen and full screen. It's basically just there for looks. What you see in that little image is not always how the movie will look. Just know that whenever you select the widescreen version, you're seeing the movie in it's original aspect ratio (unless the movie is Apocalypse Now).
     
  7. Barry S

    Barry S Stunt Coordinator

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  8. Inspector Hammer!

    Inspector Hammer! Executive Producer

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    Man Brad, you startled me, I thought I was going to have to take yet another newbie to school! [​IMG]
    I'm guessing that since ths film is 1.77:1 and not 2.35:1 like 'A Bugs Life', very little if any recompositing was done by our friends at Pixar for this film. I would also guess, that the film was probably created on the animators monitors at it's 1.77:1 AR, so what we see in the 1.33:1 version is actually a panned and scanned, of sorts, version, the same as all of the CGI Dinosaur shots in 'Jurassic Park'.
    Computer animation costs money, they have to create, from scratch, everything we'll see in each and every frame, so it would stand to reason I think that Disney wouldn't waste money creating top and bottom picture information that will just be matted at the theater anyway. And for a spendthrift studio like Disney, i'm reasonably sure that that's the case.
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  9. Jesse Skeen

    Jesse Skeen Producer

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    If you look at the letterboxed copy, you can see me grabbing Woody's ankle.
     
  10. Brad_W

    Brad_W Screenwriter

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  11. Keith Paynter

    Keith Paynter Screenwriter

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    TS2 was originally planned as a direct-to-video sequel, for a 4:3 aspect ratio. The bean counters at Disney saw that the film was looking better than most of their D2V films, and changed the plan to make it a theatrical release.
    That should explain why TS2 is matted.
    The cost of digital animation is not cheap, so when a film is designed for theatrical distribution, the cost of digital animation is kept to a minimum by animating only the safe area intended for the screen. When the film goes to video, these films then become blown up to hide this fact.
    Compare The Mask fullscreen vs. widescreen - the film was shot open matte, so the full frame version clean shots are not blown up, but any computer animation enhanced shots have been zoomed in.
    In the case of A Bug's Life, the animators explicitly went back and created new animation to recompose the film for full frame television viewing.
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    [Edited last by Keith Paynter on November 17, 2001 at 11:47 AM]
     
  12. LukeB

    LukeB Cinematographer

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    You're all wrong! (Well not really, but a good number of you.)
    It has NOTHING to do with open matte or the fact that it was going to be a direct to video movie. As Pixar even said at the old HTF Chat, when they create computer-animated movies, they create entire worlds. The computer then has the power to determine what angle what shot, what ratio etc. If you guys have ever used a 3D Computer animation program like Bryce, you would know....they're creating the worlds and not just a frame as in cel animation. The camera can pan, sweep, tilt, etc. And there's a world created, of which the frame displays some. I do believe you see more in some of the fullframe shots........but it's irrelevant as it's not OAR. Hence, it's not even on The Ultimate Toy Box. Anamorphic widescreen 1.77:1 has no black bars anyway....on a 16 x 9 display. [​IMG]
     
  13. cafink

    cafink Producer

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  14. Keith Mickunas

    Keith Mickunas Cinematographer

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    Luke, the rendering is done in steps. Yes the whole world exists, but its not like its fully rendered then an angle chosen and captured. Each frame is rendered individually after all the elements are designed, placed, and the scene defined. So each frame isn't really composed from scratch, nor is it a trivial task to make a single frame. Once the angle for a scene is chosen, adding the lighting, textures, etc. takes a tremendous amount of computer time.
    I think what Brad may be trying to get at is a flaw in the menu. The images presented to the user show that the widescreen version appears to be missing a lot of info compared to the 4:3 version. So an uninformed person may just look at that screen and make up their mind that with this film, the 4:3 is definitely better. Sounds like someone screwed up big time when making that screen.
     
  15. LukeB

    LukeB Cinematographer

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    Keith M, I was merely correcting the misinformation that Keith P and John Williamson were stating that they would have to do everything all over again (unless John just meant the re-rendering and everything, and not starting from scratch and reframing)...since it's a matter of scope and not re-animating stuff. I wasn't talking about the menu, which does sound problematic, but not on my UTB! [​IMG]
     
  16. Brad_W

    Brad_W Screenwriter

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  17. Inspector Hammer!

    Inspector Hammer! Executive Producer

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    It was just a guess on my part, I really don't know exactly what went on with the framing of this film.
    ------------------
    To the men and women of the N.Y. police and fire department
    God bless you.
    To the victims and their families
    God keep you.
    To the dirtbags who caused all this
    God help you!!!
     
  18. Jacob_St

    Jacob_St Second Unit

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    I don't know if this has been mentioned or not but some portions of A Bugs Life are Pan and scanned for video. The filmakers not only admit this on the Bugs Life Collectors edition DVD but they even show examples of it.
     
  19. Sean Conklin

    Sean Conklin Screenwriter

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    Is the Ultimate Toybox really different from the single copies? Are they basically the same other than the omission of the fullframe?
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    "Self Realization....I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates who said.......I drank what?"
     
  20. Paul Hillenbrand

    Paul Hillenbrand Screenwriter

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    LukeB wrote:
     

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