Toshiba: Yet another 3:2 pulldown question (1 Viewer)

[Mike Veroukis]

Greetings Toshiba fans!
I posted this on HomeTheaterSpot without a response and thought I'd ask here too.
I've got a 50HX70 with a manufactured date of Feb 2001. According to some on these forums this set may have the 3:2 pulldown problem that has been talked about. Well, I went out and bought the Cinema7 remote control and got the set into ADDR UPCON mode. However, when I went to 17FH I found the data value to be 07. Now this was a bit of a shock to me as I was sure that my set would have not been properly configured from the factory due to reports about the manufactured date AND the fact that I see absolutely no difference between DNR modes auto and off.
Is it possible the HX70's require a different value to be changed or the value to be changed to something else? Is it possible that the DNR circuit is not engaging? What could prevent it? I do NOT have a Progressive Scan DVD player. It's the lower end Yamaha DVD player (model # escapes me). The DVD player is hooked up via ColorStream HD1. What I've been using as a test for the 3:2 pulldown are the first space scenes in 2001: Space Odessy. As the space ships move there are severe jaggies along the edges creeping along. I believe the 3:2 pulldown should make a difference here, correct? From what I understand the 3:2 is supposed to smooth the jaggies along straight lines as they move across the screen, while stationary jaggies should be about the same. Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong effect?
If someone could let me know what to look for, that would be great. Are there other sure fire ways to test if the DNR mode is working properly at all? Should I try it in ColorStream HD2 or perhaps S-Video?
- Mike

 

[Paul Walther]

According to this thread:http://www.hometheaterspot.com/cgi-b...&f=21&t=000608
the cutoff problem for 3:2 pulldown ended in late January 2001. You likely have 3:2 engaged and are seeing downconversion artifacts from your DVD player producing the "jaggies". Most DVD players set to play on a 4:3 TV will suffer from this to some extent, due to the removal of every 4th line of information when playing anamorphic discs. On my 55HX70 the opening of Mission Impossible 2 is a good test of this. When the injection gun is held up you will see tremendous amounts of jagged lines reflecting off the gun. When I do a manual vertical compression of the screen, then play the same disc in 16:9 mode ALL of the jaggies are gone. A good test might be for you to go ahead and put the DVD player in 16:9 mode, play the offending scene on your TV (ignoring the vertical stretching for the sake of the test) and see if those jaggies aren't suddenly gone. If so, you may want to start watching such discs using a vertical compression of the screen. This can be manually done to Toshibas. See here:http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/usefu...sh_55hx70.html for tips on doing this.
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DocW

 

[Mike Veroukis]

Okay, thanks for the reply. I will give that a try.
If however you're correct that it is the effect of downconversion of the anamorphic DVD to my 4:3 TV set, then would a progressive scan DVD player make a difference? Sounds like it wouldn't make a difference as progressive scan does not take into account anamorphic aspect ratios. Is this correct logic?
- Mike

 

[Mike Veroukis]

Just another thought I had....
Are there any DVD players out there that will output a 540P signal? That would also solve the problem as it would trick the HX70 to kick into the squeeze mode. Seeing as the new Toshiba's (HX81) accept a 540P signal, can we assume that the next generation DVD players will output 540P as standard? If so, then that might be the way to go.
- Mike

 

[Paul Walther]

You're correct- the progressive players will still have the down-conversion problem. However, some players, regardless of being progressive or not, are better at the down-conversion than others. Pioneer, Panasonic, and JVC are supposed to be a bit better than others at this. Sony is good as well but sacrifices some added "softness" to acheive it. Toshibas (which I have) are the worst at it.
No mass-market DVD players currently output 540p. Believe me, several of us have been scouring the planet looking for one that will. You CAN use a computer DVD setup to output 540p, however. Some HX70 users have reported great results that way. An external (but costly) scaler will also do the trick. The new Toshibas scale 480i to 540p via an internal scaler. Most likely, DVD players will continue to be 480i or 480p across the board.
My personal solution for now is the manual sqeeze trick when I watch an anamorphic movie. All artifacts are removed and a 25-30% gain of resolution is immediately apparent. (Plus, it's FREE!)
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DocW

 

[Mike_Holly]

- "No mass-market DVD players currently output 540p. Believe me, several of us have been scouring the planet looking for one that will. " -
I have a question about this...the Toshiba SD6200 and SD9200 both claim to have Super ColorStream PRO™ Progressive Scan Technology. According to Toshiba, this means they output 540 lines of resolution - or I assume this to mean 540p. Now my question is, is my assumption correct? And if so, wouldn't this enable the squeeze mode of the xxh70's?

 

[Paul Walther]

This is one of those questions that keeps coming up again and again due to confusion over specs and some misinformation by sales people. Many DVD players will spec 540 lines of resolution, but this is NOT the same as outputting a 540p signal. It's still outputting regular 480i or (in a progressives case) 480p. When viewing this signal on a test chart they are stating that their player scores a 540 resolution score, or as often stated "540 lines of resolution". Thus the confusion. Believe me, I wish it were so.

 

[Mike Veroukis]

Paul,
I tried setting my DVD player to output in 16x9 mode, and as you predicted, the jaggies all went away. Also, I switched between the DNR modes and I DID notice a difference now. Wow! Auto mode really cleaned up those edges. Interestingly though, when I switch back to 4x3 mode the DNR modes both seem the same. I guess the 4x3 downconversion jaggies are more severe then the 3:2 pulldown jaggies.
Okay, so we currently do not have a 540P DVD player. I wonder if the XBox, which many view as a HTPC in a box, might be the answer. The other idea I had was that there seems to be a lot of talk about HD DVD coming out in a year or two. Would that not use a higher scan rate? One would think that HD DVD would be either 540P or 1080i considering the scan rate of HDTV. So in a few years this might be a moot point? But with our luck, all HD DVD players will be FireWire. Ugh!
- Mike

 

[Jay Mitchosky]

I've adjusted my 50HX70 with the 3:2 update (mine was among the first produced). Frankly I can't see a difference. DNR is set to auto (even tried setting to auto, then changing inputs as directed by Gary Merson in his current The Perfect Vision review of the 56H80) and jaggies that are there prior are there after. And yes I am accounting for downconversion (either using letterboxed discs, setting player to 16:9, or sampling laserdiscs). I'm going to need to check more demo material, such as the MI:2 scene listed above. But if I have to scour around looking for the change than it's either not that significant or it doesn't exist. Perhaps the earliest Toshiba sets didn't even have 3:2 in there - although my UPCON readings before and after were just as the Cinema 7 instructions suggested.

My personal solution for now is the manual sqeeze trick when I watch an anamorphic movie. All artifacts are removed and a 25-30% gain of resolution is immediately apparent. (Plus, it's FREE!)

I'm not clear on this. Do you not have to rework the entire set to accomplish this? In addition to the different service parameters that would require change wouldn't you have to completely reconverge?
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--Jay
"No one can hear when you're screaming in digital."
My Home Theatre Pictures...
"You're no mesiah. You're, you're a movie of the week. You're a ... t-shirt, at best."

 

[Mike Veroukis]

Jay,
I believe the appearance of the 3:2 jaggies depends a lot on the source material. That's why they say use the Star Trek movie Insurection (sp?!?). There's a scene in that movie where it is very obvious. If you happen to have 2001: A Space Odessey you can clearly see the jaggies there too in the first space scene after the pre-historic man bit. However, you will need to set your DVD player to 16x9 mode first (as I mentioned in previous posts). Flipping between DNR modes makes a significant difference. I noticed that the screen will glitch out for a fraction of a second when engaging the DNR mode. I guess it is engaging a new circuit and this might cause a visual disturbance. That too might tip you off that it is indeed engaging.

I'm not clear on this. Do you not have to rework the entire set to accomplish this? In addition to the different service parameters that would require change wouldn't you have to completely reconverge?

Yeah, they say it takes about 5 minutes to switch. Some have suggested to program your remote with a macro to go between the normal & squeezed modes. Some minor convergence might need to be done, but a 9 point convergence should be enough. I'm not sure I wanna go this route as we watch more TV then movies. Plus, I'm not the only one using the TV. I just know one day I'll forget the TV in the squeezed mode and my mom will want to watch normal TV while I'm gone or something. Not good. I just hope your theory about Toshiba building a 480/540 DVD player pans out!
- Mike

 

[John-D]

Okay, so we currently do not have a 540P DVD player.

You can always go the HTPC route.. gets rid of the Chroma Bug while u're at it

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The things we own end up owning us

 

[Paul Walther]

Quote from Jay- "I'm not clear on this. Do you not have to rework the entire set to accomplish this? In addition to the different service parameters that would require change wouldn't you have to completely reconverge?"
Hey, Jay. See my article here for detailed steps to doing a fast anamorphic squeeze:http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/usefu...sh_55hx70.html
Using the method outlined you can quickly enter 7 service parameters (they are repeatable, once you get the numbers that work for your set) then, if you follow my steps, just do a user 9 point convergence and it all comes together. Takes me 4-5 minutes now to go from 4:3 to a vertical compression with good geometry.
You're correct about the Cinematrix mod, that's why I was careful to say "mass market DVD player"- it's just out of my reach financially to go that route. I have a feeling that we will see 540p players as HD DVD becomes a reality. In the short run, I still think Toshiba will avoid making a simple squeeze solution for us, based on the fact that the new 4:3 Tosh TV's orbit the image up and down when they're in compression mode- thus still enabling the "Oooooo, no burn in" argument.
Just a hunch.
By the way- and off topic- MAKE SCREEN MATTES EVERYBODY!!- I finally finished mine last night and MAN what a difference, especially on 2.35:1 aspect films.
And do you realize- the NEW Toshiba 4:3 TVs will be unable to use mattes!! The moving screen will make this impossible on widescreen material. We may be better off than we think.
Regards-
P.W.

 

[Jay Mitchosky]

And do you realize- the NEW Toshiba 4:3 TVs will be unable to use mattes!! The moving screen will make this impossible on widescreen material.

Just make the mattes a little taller - the screen will not be moving that much as otherwise it would be noticeable, probably induce some sort of vertigo.

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--Jay
"No one can hear when you're screaming in digital."
My Home Theatre Pictures...
"You're no mesiah. You're, you're a movie of the week. You're a ... t-shirt, at best."

 

[Mike Veroukis]

MAKE SCREEN MATTES EVERYBODY!!- I finally finished mine last night and MAN what a difference, especially on 2.35:1 aspect films.

So what is a screen mattes and what does it do?
- Mike

 

[Paul Walther]

Hey, Jay. Indeed, the Macro idea is a bad one due to the problems you outline- I don't use it as part of my process. I did try while experimenting the value 80 ADDR mode reset of user convergence, but it didn't "snap" things back to the original convergence as expected, thus to go back you must redo a 9-point convergence. For me, this works. I figure it takes my wife 5 minutes to get the popcorn ready, rustle up the kids, etc., might as well use the time to enjoy the extra benefit of anamorphic viewing. Regarding the width overscan, I've never missed it with the exception of an occasional screen credit where the first letter is missing because it was placed extremely right or left of center. But you're right, we really should have the choice from Tosh instead of doing all this mucking about.
Regards,
P.W.

 

[Paul Walther]

So what is a screen mattes and what does it do?
- Mike
Hey Mike, see the following link for a quick how-to-
http://www.bus.ucf.edu/cwhite/theater/Mattes.htm
Mattes are placed in front of the black bars associated with wide-screen films. It completely eliminates "light leakage" from the bars (they give off more than you think) and allow you to completely focus on the widescreen image. Sounds hokey, but Jay and many others will vouche for the amazing transformation this makes, especially in a darkened room. Probably the biggest "bang for buck" tweak.
P.W.