Toshiba Widescreen HD's not really HD's?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Rafe Brennan, Oct 19, 2001.

  1. Rafe Brennan

    Rafe Brennan Auditioning

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    I was talking to the salesman at my local hi fi shop and he kept telling me that the 56H80 was not really a HD tv. That it would not be able to properly process and display HD broadcasts.
    Basically he was saying even with a STB pulling in HD TV content, the tv was not really HD.
    This was surprising to me as I thought these sets were capable of this.
    Can someone with a clue help me out [​IMG]
     
  2. Rafe Brennan

    Rafe Brennan Auditioning

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    sorry I just remembered something else,
    he said he had spoken with the Toshiba rep and that if i was watching a HD tv show with my STB and 56H80, that I'd be better leaving the STB switched to Standard Def, and not High Def, because the tv would not be able to display the image properly.
    That just totally threw me :[
     
  3. Marc Alexander

    Marc Alexander Stunt Coordinator

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    He was wrong. While the Toshiba may not be able to fully resolve the resolution of a 1920x1080i broadcast, it can definitely display the signal. I believe Toshiba advertises 1200x1080i (comparable to Mits and Pioneer models). Just set your STB to output 1080i (I don't think the Toshiba will display 720p) and put that idiot out of your mind.
    Enjoy!!!
     
  4. Will

    Will Guest

    The new Toshiba RPTVs can't do what last year's
    Toshiba's could do, namely display 480p natively.
    Instead, they convert 480p to 540p. That can cause
    cause artifacts. Although this won't disquality the
    new Toshiba's from being HD, this is not good.
    Older Toshiba's and other RPTVs from other brands
    can display BOTH 480p and 540p (which is used for 1080i)
    natively. But new Toshiba RPTVs cannot.
     
  5. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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    I can't help thinking that you must have misunderstood this guy?! I mean, how could a salesperson be so obviously incorrect about something this basic?
     
  6. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    The Toshiba will convert 480i or 480p to 540p, but will display 1080i from an stb natively. It will accept a 720p signal (ABC is using 720p for it's HD programming) but will not display it natively. It converts 720p to 1080i.
    This inability to display 720p natively may be the germ of this salesman's misconception.
    The Hughes mfg stbs, sold under the Hughes, Toshiba, and Mitsubishi brand names will not output 720p, converting it to 1080i for HD sets, or 480i for non-HD sets.
    The Dish 6000 STB will output 720p natively.
    I have a Tosh 3000 stb. It will display only 1080i from it's component video outputs, and only 480i from it's S-video outputs. The box outputs 1080i natively from 1080i sources like HDnet or HBOhd, converts 720p from ABC to 1080i quite nicely. It also converts ntsc 480i to 1080i for the component outputs and this is where it falls down. Switching the boxe's output to 480i via the S-output and using the set's doubling produces a much better picure for ntsc material.
    So for ntsc sources, you actually are better off using the 480i mode on the STB.
    The salesman has misinterpreted a couple of facts and reached the wrong conclusions.
    ------------------
    Steve S.
    I prefer not to push the subwoofers until they're properly run in.
     
  7. Rafe Brennan

    Rafe Brennan Auditioning

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    Thanks a lot guys,
    I definitely did not misunderstand what he was saying.
    Although the context of how he said it is a bit dodgy.
    Basically I told him the best price I had obtained for that set and asked if he could better it, he went off for a bit and came back saying no they couldn't match it, because it was just too low.
    That's really when he began to dump on the tv, saying that it wasn't really HD and that he'd talked to the Toshiba rep and that 56h80 could not handle HD signal at all.
    I told him that to be HD the tv had to be 16:9 and be able to display a 1080i image and that the 56h80 could do both. But he kept saying that even though it could display a 1080i image, it wasn't really a HD set, and that he couldn't explain why but that is what he had been told.
    Anyway, thanks a lot for your help. Being in Australia leaves me outta the loop somewhat. It's frustrating the best price I can get for a 56H80 (no newer models exist) in this country is $4500 US. :[
     
  8. Marc Alexander

    Marc Alexander Stunt Coordinator

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  9. Will

    Will Guest

    As you know, that model is last year's model, at least in
    the USA.
    Can you get THIS YEAR's model Pioneer non-Elite RPTV
    in your country? That's an RPTV many people here in
    the USA prefer over the Toshiba RPTV, even though it
    costs a little bit more. It does both 480p and 540p
    natively, and also it has a better line doubler
    than both this year's and last year's Toshiba.
    [Edited last by Will on October 21, 2001 at 02:13 AM]
     
  10. Rafe Brennan

    Rafe Brennan Auditioning

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    Nope the only tv's available in Aus are the Toshibas and only the H80 models.
    the Mitsubishi and Pioneer RPTV's simply don't exist down here.
     
  11. Rafe Brennan

    Rafe Brennan Auditioning

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    I've been doing some more searching on the Digital Broadcasting Australia site and it says the following
    What are High Definition (HD) pictures?
    The minimum HD picture resolution is to be 576 lines x 720 pixels @ 50Hz progressive (576p).
    The SD picture resolution is 576 lines x 720 pixels @ 50Hz interlaced (576i).
    Right.. then on this list http://www.dba.org.au/templates/file...List_Oct15.pdf , they list the Toshiba 56WH09G (the same tv as 56H80) as having a max. display capability of only 576i, which would mean it is not capable of displaying the HD 576p image.
    Perhaps the confusion exists because in Australia HD is 576p, and the 56h80 is not capable of this display resolution? Thus is could only really display the 576i image?
    Can anyone comment on this?
    [Edited last by Rafe Brennan on October 21, 2001 at 04:04 AM]
     
  12. Doug_H

    Doug_H Supporting Actor

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    Does the 65hx81 also show a 720P signal as 1080i? Does a native 720p look better than 1080i?
    ------------------
    The Mischievous Rogue Strikes Again! The Humble Hanson Theater
     
  13. Allan Jayne

    Allan Jayne Cinematographer

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    576i 25 Hz (50 fields/sec) with any number of pixels across is another name for standard PAL (or SECAM); 576p 50 Hz is another name for PAL in progressive scan. These are SDTV formats, not HDTV. I am not sure whether there exists a 1152i (essentially the same as 576p but where the program material has 1152 unique scan lines), which would be an HDTV format.
    It is generally accepted that HDTV means about a million pixels, 720p (1280 x 720) is still accepted as HDTV.
    Some 1080i 4:3 TV sets downconvert 16:9 pictures including HDTV onto their middle 810 scan lines as opposed to do a true (optical) squeeze to a 16:9 shape. There are still over a million pixel positions (1920 x 810) so if the electronics and tubes are good enough it will still qualify as HDTV.
    Some "HDTV" sets, in fact lots of them, should fail the definition of HDTV because, aothough they can put picture details in any one of the 1920 x 1080 pixel positions of 1080i, they can't make dots small enough so three (light, dark, light) spots each two pixels wide (as if to try to resolve 1000 pixels across) can be distinguished.
    More video hints: http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/video.htm
    [Edited last by Allan Jayne on October 21, 2001 at 12:53 PM]
    [Edited last by Allan Jayne on October 21, 2001 at 12:55 PM]
     
  14. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    Doug,
    Chances are the 65HX81 uses the same basic chassis as the 50 and 57, so it probably also converts 720p to 1080i.
    To the best of my knowledge the only sets that would display 720p natively were the older Panasonic 56 inchers. Their new 47 and 56 inch models won't.
    I've never seen a native 720p picture, so I can't comment from personal experience. Some HD purists with golden eyes are of the opinion that 720p looks better than 1080i.
    In my experience, some 720p converted to 1080i by my Tosh. STB looks better than some HBOHD native 1080i, depending on the program each channel is running, but the consistently best HD picture I've seen in my setup is from HDNet 1080i-absolutely gorgeous.
    ------------------
    Steve S.
    I prefer not to push the subwoofers until they're properly run in.
     
  15. Dave Miller

    Dave Miller Supporting Actor

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    I was told by a Tweeter salesman that the human eye could not "detect" anything over 720p. Where do they hire these guys?
    Peace,
    DM
    ------------------
    "We all end up dead, the question is how and why."
     
  16. Sean_S

    Sean_S Auditioning

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    No Toshiba HD sets can display 720p signals. You can feed them 480i, 480p, 540p (only source I know of currenly would be a PC/HTPC), and 1080i. That's it. Upconversion to 540p on the new sets is only for 480i and 480p signals. This conversion doesn't introduced any artifacts that I can detect other than those already present in the medium itself. High def signals (1080i only) pass w/o any of that processing. I just purchased and calibrated a 57HX81 and it has the best HD picture I've ever seen from a RPTV excluding those with 9" CRT's (Phillips & Zenith).
    Sean
     
  17. Andrew Beacom

    Andrew Beacom Supporting Actor

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    Rafe,
    I would try to find out all you can about the Australian HD standard. Technical details etc. Call the TV stations if you have too. If they are producing content they should know. Don't part with $4500 before then.
    What you need to find out is if the PAL vs NTSC is an issue with the Aussie HD standard. All I remember reading is the blurbs that said Australia was planning on using a higher startdard of HD than the rest of the world (including the US) bar Japan. What I never saw was details on what that meant in terms of scan lines etc. You will need to know this before you could decide if the 56H80 would be compatible.
    If you just wanted a big screen for DVD's then the 56H80 is a good choice.
    BTW I thought anyone was a long way off producing HD content in Aus as the decision was still being appealed before I left. Although I think Packer and Howard pushed it through.
     

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